[00:00:00] Kao: I would say being a good designer is having open-mindedness to learn new things every day and
[00:00:05] never stop learning, because there might be a new tech coming out tomorrow.
[00:00:09] Scott: Hi there and welcome to Made it in Thailand, the podcast where we learn how to thrive in Thailand from top [00:00:15] performers who have found success in the Kingdom. I’m your host, Scott Pressimone. Today, I’m speaking with Jirawat Taraya, also known as Kao. Kao is a web and UI design lead. He has some great insights on building relationships, effective communication and [00:00:30] navigating cultural differences in the Thai workplace.
[00:00:33] I invited Kao onto the podcast because of his unique approach to leadership in design, and he also has a fair bit of courage as being interviewed on an English podcast isn’t something many Thai designers would typically [00:00:45] be open to. So without further ado, let’s jump into the interview.
[00:00:49] Kao, thank you so much for joining me today on this episode of Made it in Thailand.
[00:00:55] Kao: Hello, hello.
[00:00:56] Scott: So Kao, you are my first Thai guest. Really happy to have you [00:01:00] here today. So to get started, can you tell the audience who you are and what you do here in Thailand?
[00:01:06] Kao: I’m Jirawat Tariya, Thai names, or you can just call me Kao. I’m a web and UI designer.
[00:01:14] I’m from Chiang [00:01:15] Mai the city up north.
[00:01:17] Scott: And where did you go to university?
[00:01:19] Kao: Very creative name, which is Chiang Mai University.
[00:01:22] Scott: I enrolled in a new college inside Chiang Mai University called College of Arts, Media and [00:01:30] Technology. And I studied in animation and game design, which is a mix of left brain, right brain kind of thing.
[00:01:39] Kao: And yeah it was my dream to become a kind of a, an animator. I grew [00:01:45] up watching Pixar movies or Disney movies a lot, so I was hoping that I could join them in the studio and working on animations and stuff, but then, after four years of actually studying animation reality hit hard.
[00:01:59] So I [00:02:00] realized that I have a knack for graphic design because people noticed me working on graphic design and people just noticed me for those graphics and not my animation. So I thought I should be focusing on the design instead. So here I [00:02:15] am.
[00:02:15] If you’re thinking like game design, were there any video games or anything that you grew up with that made you think you might want to go in that direction?
[00:02:24] Oh definitely, I still did a little bit of research and a little bit of learning on my own about game [00:02:30] design and how game development works. I think I watch them about daily. The videos from the lead game designers, like the designer from Fallout, or designer from Obsidian Entertainment, and stuff like that.
[00:02:43] What was your favorite game during your [00:02:45] teenage years though?
[00:02:47] Oh yeah. I usually gravitated more towards story heavy games, like Mass Effect, like the older Fallouts or the usual Dungeons and Dragons RPGs, [00:03:00] because, I like exploring in the story and kind of get surprised by story that was masterfully written. And that’s actually the drive that drove me towards the learning English, because those kind of games, [00:03:15] those story heavy games, you have to, answer the right things or do the right things so that you don’t get punished by the game system.
[00:03:23] So yeah I remember getting really frustrated because I didn’t really know what they were saying and lots of [00:03:30] idioms and puns and whatnot, right? So yeah, I, to get revenge on those games, I used to have this stack of papers where I just pause the game and note down some words or some sentences that I don’t really get and, search them afterwards.
[00:03:44] [00:03:45] So I think in one summer break, I got 2,000 new vocabulary out of like a video game. So that was pretty nice.
[00:03:56] Scott: So you weren’t necessarily taking these very formalized study [00:04:00] sessions and saying, okay, I have this tutor that’s going to teach me all these things. You’re learning your English from video games, which probably explains why you understand the idioms and some of these other phrases that would be less common in a textbook, right?
[00:04:11] I have always been a person who don’t really [00:04:15] deal well with the traditional classroom environment. I actually just love to study things on my own, in my own way, and I have this personality trait of mine to study well when there’s an analogy of some kind that I can [00:04:30] comparing things to. And I don’t really do well with a pure theory of things when you’re like explaining in like plain text. I have to have a bunch of examples or analogies so I can understand things.
[00:04:41] Kao: And most classrooms don’t do that. They just [00:04:45] throw you in, throw like a bunch of texts at you and let you figure all the examples out. So yeah.
[00:04:52] How were your grades in school then? Believe it or not, I did pretty well. I I mostly scored out of four, I scored [00:05:00] mostly like three and upwards. I actually even got a, an honor after studying at university. So that was surprising to me as well. I think everyone was surprised at me getting an honor like four years in a row. [00:05:15] Wow
[00:05:15] Scott: I was expecting you to say that you did terrible in school, but you made up for it in your career because that often is the case, right? And creatives can sometimes maybe struggle in school, but then really do excel in the real world.
[00:05:25] Kao: I was surprised myself.
[00:05:28] Scott: Now, what about your first [00:05:30] job? So I’m imagining you’re graduating from university in Chiang Mai. Is it natural for people after they graduate to just go and get a job in Bangkok? Or what did that progression look like for you?
[00:05:39] Kao: I think most people would prefer to stay in their hometown. But of course I [00:05:45] did some kind of research into jobs and stuff. And I saw that the salary difference between Chiang Mai, for example, and Bangkok is three or four times different. So if you work at a senior in Chiang Mai, you might get [00:06:00] maybe if generous make get 20,000 (THB) or something, but then in Bangkok you might get upwards to like 100k (THB) or something.
[00:06:07] So that’s a lot of different between salary. So that’s why I gravitated more towards working in Bangkok for, for [00:06:15] the dough.
[00:06:16] Scott: So what was your first job?
[00:06:19] Kao: Yeah. Pronto is actually my first job here in Bangkok, but before that, of course, I work as a freelance for a bit and by a bit, like two or three years.
[00:06:28] Scott: I understand at [00:06:30] Pronto Marketing, you moved through the ranks. So can you share a little bit about that? Of what your initial job was and how that changed over your career.
[00:06:38] Kao: So during my freelance years, I. I started off first as a motion [00:06:45] designer and I worked on infographics video and some videos even for, for a travel agency and stuff like that. And I also had a UK client and these clients want a website to go with their [00:07:00] videos and to go with their own platform.
[00:07:02] So they asked me to do to do the website for them because they thought that my graphic design inside those videos were pretty good. So I did that and they liked the web so much that they keep [00:07:15] hiring me for web design and I thought maybe I could make this into a career and during the end of my freelance days, the things get pretty unpredictable.
[00:07:27] Like I don’t really get as much job as I did [00:07:30] in the, during the first few months. So I was looking for a way out and saw that by pure chance, so that Pronto is accepting a new web designer. So I just apply immediately. And the [00:07:45] team my portfolio back then was, didn’t really have a lot of web design in there.
[00:07:50] Just mostly illustrations and videos. But I’m glad that the design team at Pronto took a gamble with me and teach me a few things [00:08:00] before I get started during the first month and yeah, that’s how I got started.
[00:08:06] Scott: Then how did you progress from there? Cause you like at this stage, your design lead, is that right? Yeah. [00:08:15] So did you push for that or did that come naturally just for being a good designer over years and they just they pushed you in that direction.
[00:08:21] Kao: I was happy being just a senior designer back then. I didn’t really aspire to be a lead or want to be like some kind of manager [00:08:30] because I was pretty in this mindset of, I have to perfect my craft first before I started doing something else. So I was dabbling into lots of branch of graphic design and UI design and did a lot about UX when my [00:08:45] manager came to me that I, he said that I have, I had a kind of a good communication in Thai and English, and I also have had good relationships with a lot of people in the company.
[00:08:58] So why don’t you try being [00:09:00] a lead? And I thought, this is something, this is an opportunity that wouldn’t come again. So I just accepted without thinking much. And then I, yeah, got into this position and struggled a bit in the first few months trying to be [00:09:15] something I wasn’t. And then, I thought that to be a lead, you have to be this imposing figure in the team who has, who had all the answers in the world and doesn’t allow to, to fail and have to be someone [00:09:30] who has like an authority on design, have to go into people’s design and kind of judge things and make people do something that I think would be good. And then I realized that I didn’t really have to do all of that [00:09:45] and just be myself and maintain good relationships with everyone. And everyone already trusted my opinions on design, right?
[00:09:52] So I just don’t need to do anything extra. Yeah, lots of learning after that. And so I thought my job would not [00:10:00] to be that imposing figure. And it says that be a person who makes everyone life easier by any, anything that I can do, like a template or a bit of mentoring or just review their work a lot or something [00:10:15] like that.
[00:10:16] Are there any managers or leaders that you look up to that helped you better understand how you could fit into that lead role without, as you said, being overbearing or having all the answers? Who did you look to and who did you learn that skill set from?
[00:10:29] [00:10:30] I don’t think I learn or take away from someone. It’s just. I just think that there is a gap in the design team, right? And I think I need to fill that gap to help the team. And that was [00:10:45] in a lead who would go into everyone’s work and just mentor people and review people. And so I try to fill those gaps and realize that to fill those gaps, you don’t have to be like imposing or be intimidating or [00:11:00] something like that.
[00:11:00] Now you mentioned part of the reason you were given the opportunity to become a lead was your English ability, right? And so the designers you’re working with are Thai. I assume some of the [00:11:15] other individuals you work with internally at the company and clients may be English speaking, but it sounds like your English ability helped you bridge that gap.
[00:11:22] Scott: Is that fair to say?
[00:11:24] Kao: Pretty much. Yeah, and it’s also that most designers, [00:11:30] at least in my team are pretty shy and I’m the one who’s a bit more outspoken than the rest. So that’s why I got into this position. I think,
[00:11:40] Scott: Where’d you get that from? How’d you become so outspoken?
[00:11:43] Kao: This brings back to what I said [00:11:45] before, right? So I didn’t really aspire to be someone who talked to a lot of people, but then I got promoted and I feel like I need to be that person for the team. So I studied a lot of great narrators maybe not for my field, but I studied [00:12:00] how people speak.
[00:12:01] Like from James Hoffman or from Tim Cain from the video game industry so that I can learn how to speak as well as them and I just practice with myself in front of mirrors like days on days and try to get [00:12:15] better at communicating.
[00:12:16] It’s interesting that you didn’t really aspire to be some of these things, but when you were given the opportunity, you just took it, right? So you’re saying, okay, I have an opportunity to get to become a lead or I have an opportunity to take this design position and you’re just going to [00:12:30] make it work.
[00:12:30] Scott: So maybe you weren’t saying, I want to be the best communicator, but in order to do my job well, I need to become better at communicating. Not everyone necessarily does that. Some people say, oh, I’m not good at this. I’m not good at English. I’m not going to Thai.
[00:12:43] And they just accept it, but it seems [00:12:45] like you’re more the type of person that will say, I’m not good at this. So therefore I’m going to do this to get better at it. I do find it much easier to communicate with you because there’s not as much grading needed, right? You don’t have to grade the language as much you simple words, because I think that you are very good [00:13:00] at the natural language, the way people actually speak, not the formal way people speak, but the way people make jokes, right? And I think that goes a very long way. Where did you, outside of gaming, was there any place that you also learned some of this more complex [00:13:15] English either online or anything else like that, that you think was helpful to you?
[00:13:19] Kao: So aside from having my UK clients that I used to talk to daily I usually just go into the internet, like on Twitter on Reddit and [00:13:30] just read what people talk and picked up from that. Because I think Twitter nowadays may sound, may sounds like a hellish landscape that you don’t, shouldn’t spend that much time in, but [00:13:45] I found it useful to, learn the new things that, that people is, are saying because language evolved daily, right?
[00:13:53] And Twitter is the kind of like the place where you can see it firsthand when they happened [00:14:00] and all those Gen Z words that you may see nowadays. I think I saw it first on Twitter like maybe a year ago and now it’s only just got popular nowadays. So yeah, just being terminally online [00:14:15] helps.
[00:14:15] Scott: Nice. And if I remember correctly, do you also make memes? Have you made memes before or?
[00:14:22] Kao: Yeah, just just make memes on Twitter and sometimes got caught on by people. But yeah it’s [00:14:30] just. I have those itch to make memes and I just did it.
[00:14:34] Scott: All right. So I know we didn’t touch on this but we’ve known each other for quite a few years.
[00:14:39] So first thing is. What did your fellow designers or [00:14:45] individuals at Pronto that what sort of reputation did I have?
[00:14:47] Cause I think that would lay a little bit of framework for our relationship.
[00:14:50] Kao: Yeah first thing that they said to me when when they asked if I was interested in joining this the team that Scott is building was that, are you, would you be [00:15:00] okay? Because. Scott talks really fast and you might not follow all of that, even if you are good at English. And I just thought why not?
[00:15:09] Why not just try, right? And we just, I think I remember being, booking a one on one with you before we sat [00:15:15] on the team. And I was surprised that I caught about 70 percent of it. And so I agreed and just joined your team pretty much. Yeah. But most of the designers just got scared when when a native speaker just speak quickly and [00:15:30] then use a bunch of words that they don’t understand.
[00:15:33] And they got afraid for me, basically.
[00:15:37] Scott: So they threw you into it. You managed to pick up 70 percent and that’s a win in my book. And I would say I’ve [00:15:45] hopefully gotten a little bit better at slowing down. I am American, so we’re known to speak quickly, especially on the East coast. But I’ve gotten a little bit better at that hopefully.
[00:15:53] And you’ve probably gotten much better on your end, too, of knowing what I’m talking about. But again, I think it’s always been a pleasure working with you because from [00:16:00] building up a kind of company, a brand everything around Growth Connect was really you, Kao. And in fact, any time that I don’t work with you I’m a little bit, I’m wishing I was able to work with you, right?
[00:16:09] Because you you just get it. And I’m not sure for anyone who’s worked with designers before in Thailand or probably anywhere [00:16:15] else, but, You really have to get the vision across to someone and they have to get it. They have to understand where you’re coming at and then not just do what you say, right?
[00:16:23] So I’m not a designer. I need you to get across what I’m hoping to achieve and then I need someone who can [00:16:30] understand it and also push back around the edges, right? Because I have an idea of what I want, but I don’t know how to make it better. And that comes from you. And I think that you, for whatever reason, you have the ability to understand the purpose or the bigger [00:16:45] picture and then actually adapted to make it better. Right now, is that is that a skill that you just built over time or what would you attribute that success to?
[00:16:56] Kao: This may get a little bit personal, but I think I got that [00:17:00] from growing up in a pretty big Asian family. I think I used to have not I used to have, I had 20 cousins or something, or maybe 10 aunts, 10 uncles, and lots of grandparents in my back in my [00:17:15] hometown and living in that big family kind of builds your reading the room skill in some way, because like how, Asians, Asian people they don’t really speak their mind.
[00:17:27] And if they have something, they usually just keep it in their minds [00:17:30] and just, they might just smile at you, but then they, you don’t really know what they are thinking. So I develop this skill of noticing how people think, how people actually think from, from noticing a lot of people and a lot of and [00:17:45] lots of age gaps.
[00:17:47] And I just took it upon myself basically to make everyone lives a bit happier and easier. And if I notice someone, they don’t want to be there, for example, I would just try to find some [00:18:00] nice way to bring them out of that room for example. Yeah, I think I got that from family thing and I adapt that into my larger friend groups as well.
[00:18:09] And then I adapt that again to at work. And I think it [00:18:15] pretty helps me being like successful at reading people. And I also try to put myself in everyone’s shoes, for example. And whenever I send a design to someone, I would think if I were a client, [00:18:30] would I be satisfied with the work that I was sending out to them?
[00:18:33] Am I missing something? And I just asked myself over and over until I reiterate on the work until I myself am satisfied with the requirements [00:18:45] that I put inside my head that if I’m a client, would I be happy with this work or not, for example, and then, yeah, just adapt it over time and yeah, just iterate, reiterate until I find it satisfying.[00:19:00]
[00:19:00] Satisfying,
[00:19:00] Scott: Yeah, that’s really important. If you’re basically positioning yourself as the client. And I do think that’s different than just, I got this done, let me move it on, right? Which I think can be the tendency sometimes. But if you say, would I be happy receiving this? You’re [00:19:15] going to be your own worst critic, right?
[00:19:16] Kao: Yeah, pretty much. There’s definitely a downside to that. That if there’s no time limit, then I would just keep reiterating and just keep doing, and doing until it becomes something entirely different and I might not even like it at [00:19:30] the end of it and just redo it all over again. So there’s definitely, I have to impose a limit upon myself so that I don’t, just go off the rails and not finishing anything.
[00:19:42] Scott: You had mentioned, part of Thai culture [00:19:45] might be smiling. Not always necessarily meaning it. Don’t always take a smile at face value. But then also nodding the head in agreement. And I think something else that you’ve managed to do is ask the right questions ahead of time. Because if a client, [00:20:00] let’s say that’s a British American, whatever client coming in and saying, I want this, can you do it?
[00:20:05] I think there can be a tendency to nod head. Yes, sir. I’ll get that done. Whereas then they might, some individuals might go to their colleagues or go to their friends and say, I have no idea what [00:20:15] they’re talking about. And there’s this kind of agreement at the forefront, but not necessarily true understanding or true belief or and I think it’s so important that you’ve built up that ability to actually ask questions upfront.
[00:20:26] Even when it’s maybe uncomfortable to get clarification, because if you’re [00:20:30] designing without knowing what you’re designing or what you’re supposed to design and not getting those questions answered, then you can go down that bad trajectory. So it’s an important cultural thing that people need to be aware of, right?
[00:20:40] Kao: Yeah, definitely. I think most Asians would not [00:20:45] say anything to not make the person in the room feel bad at the time, but they don’t really think ahead of what that might transpire to in the future. And I think people just need to say what’s on their mind more. And, it [00:21:00] actually helps everyone in the team and in the room to like, and noticing the issues ahead of time,
[00:21:07] Scott: That brings me to another kind of line of questions around Thailand. I think there are a lot of amazing things about Thailand. That’s why I’ve been here for so [00:21:15] many years, of course. There are very big differences but I’m also just curious how Thailand has changed over time.
[00:21:21] So is it fair to say that you grew up during the time the internet was kind of, making its way into Thailand? You’re a bit of the internet generation. Is that fair [00:21:30] to say?
[00:21:31] Kao: I was at the start of it in my middle school and yeah I think I even got a little bit of a late start on the internet. People nowadays they would be inseparable with the internet, right? [00:21:45] But back then it was a kind of a privilege to have a fiber internet in their own house back when I was a middle school.
[00:21:53] So
[00:21:54] Scott: So high speed internet even better, right? Did you ever have 56k modems?[00:22:00]
[00:22:00] Kao: Oh, I used to have used to have that and just spend all of my quarters just playing online games. All that distinctly.
[00:22:09] Scott: I’m curious, anything notable to you in your mind of what you think people that are maybe [00:22:15] 10 or 20 years older than you didn’t experience or what you think, how you think Thailand has changed, let’s say, over the last 10 or 20 years. Since the internet is just part of the culture or other things that has changed in Thailand in your mind
[00:22:28] Kao: I don’t think there’s much [00:22:30] difference difference between Thailand back then and nowadays, aside from extremely fast internet. I think Thailand has one of the most high, like high speed internet over the whole world. I think just only ranked below [00:22:45] a ranked below the South Korea, I think. So we are sitting squarely at number two or number three in the world at the moment.
[00:22:53] Yeah, I think. And we, I think we adopt a lot of internet culture and apps and everything like a [00:23:00] lot earlier than most of other countries. I think at one point Thai people use a lot of Facebook and the amount of Thai people on Facebook is about like number three from all over the world, like just under the U [00:23:15] S and of course with Twitter and TikTok.
[00:23:19] And, the Vine, the TikTok version of Twitter back then, too. So yeah, I think Thai people just be more online, like online more in general nowadays [00:23:30] and even more and more nowadays. And I always find Thai people having this novel way to, to use the social network. So I see people just selling stuff in Instagram and they made a lot of money out of it.
[00:23:44] They don’t have [00:23:45] to, open up Shopify, for example, didn’t really have to have an eBay equivalent in Thailand. They just use Instagram and Facebook and Instagram had to actually adapt their own app to, to, to count for all those [00:24:00] marketplace, like pseudo marketplace that Thai people just bring up like
[00:24:05] Scott: Yeah, that’s a really good point it I think sometimes countries can skip a few steps for the better, right? So for instance Thailand has become, as [00:24:15] you said, one of the best for countries for high speed internet. Some countries went through each step and might have slower internet today because they went through each of the prior steps.
[00:24:22] Whereas you jumped over or leapfrogged some other countries in certain ways and mobile first, that’s something that the last 10 years or [00:24:30] so people talk about how a website might be mobile first, but in Thailand, potentially it is not just mobile first, but only mobile, right?
[00:24:37] Because everyone’s interacting with mobile. And as you said, LINE and some of these other applications are everything to everyone. [00:24:45] And they’re always in someone’s hand, right? Essentially you can run whole e commerce stores all based on LINE. And if you were to approach that individual who’s doing really well selling on LINE, Hey, I could build you a website.
[00:24:55] It’s at why I’ve got LINE. It’s all right here. So it’s a different economy. It’s very [00:25:00] interesting.
[00:25:00] Kao: I don’t see a lot of Thai business having their own website or they didn’t really care for it. And I think that’s a issue with a foreign company trying to make a business in Thailand. And they would ask if Thai people are interested in, like a website design [00:25:15] or something like that.
[00:25:15] But most Thai would just say, I already have a LINE account. I have an Instagram account and I can do everything that they do like better than with a website. So definitely like a different Maybe in [00:25:30] culture or how we handle tech.
[00:25:32] Scott: Now let’s move over to design, so your area of focus here. You had mentioned why you got into design, right? How you’d done some things in the past but then you I guess the job market pushed you into a certain area of design, right? [00:25:45] And so it was how could you provide for yourself your family, everything like this, right?
[00:25:49] But I assume you still have a lot of passion in design. So what sort of design, what part of design really inspires you or where do you choose to focus your time? Where do you get the most inspiration?
[00:25:59] Kao: I just [00:26:00] like to make things look good basically. And I would look at maybe some posters or some billboard design and I would critique it or I might just yell it out loud. Wow, that looks very good or something like that.
[00:26:12] And I would notice this on every [00:26:15] other things on, in the mall or like that. So just, and I would always find a way to one up them, so to speak, like in my head, if I see the design and how would I make it better? And I just keep doing [00:26:30] that and apply them to my new work and basically just keep one upping myself.
[00:26:34] Scott: So it’s all about just making things that look good.
[00:26:37] Kao: And usable as well.
[00:26:40] Scott: Okay. Now, do you feel that [00:26:45] there’s any misunderstanding from the outside? So let’s say a company or a business that needs design, are there any common challenges that they face or things that they misunderstand about either design as the function [00:27:00] or hiring designers? Any issues there?
[00:27:04] Kao: At least I hear this from my friends where they think of a design as, like I said, like someone who makes things look good, but they don’t really get involved with [00:27:15] the steps that designers have to do to create a design. So they just think of us as some kind of an artist where we can just sit in front of our computers and just come up with, artistry stuff. I think Design is actually [00:27:30] a lot different than being an artist.
[00:27:33] I think it’s about emphasizing with users or with your business and then define an issue and then try to solve those issues with visuals, so to speak. So I [00:27:45] think, I don’t think there’s much difference between between an engineer or a designer in their working process. It’s just trying to solve issues just the way all the two sets that they used, it’s just different.
[00:27:58] Scott: Interesting. I never thought of [00:28:00] it as being similar to engineering, but I understand. You’re using very technical tools. In some cases, you’re going through a process to build something up and people might not understand what goes into that process or all the layers that it takes to get the final product.
[00:28:13] So it’s Oh, that looks nice. Or that logo looks [00:28:15] nice. Or that image or that UX of that app looks nice, but they don’t necessarily know all the steps that it takes to get there.
[00:28:22] Kao: Yeah, like people, like I heard sometimes people said that the good design is invisible, right? So when a design is [00:28:30] good, they don’t, you don’t really notice anything on that and they just keep on using the product. But when something went wrong, then you, it got noticed right away. And the app might just get like the reverse halo effect where the UI is not good, then the app is [00:28:45] not good.
[00:28:45] The entire app is not good too. So it’s a very scary thought process.
[00:28:52] Scott: Yeah, design is very important. You could have a very technical team that’s delivering a very amazing product, but if you can’t get around that product well, [00:29:00] and you can’t see yourself using that product every day, and I’m thinking, in terms of an app, if you were to download an app from the app store, let’s say it has a good rating.
[00:29:06] Let’s say it’s very functional. It solves the problem, but you’re searching around for buttons and trying to navigate around it. I think it’s very easy to give up and say. [00:29:15] I’m just not going to use this anymore, right? It’s not enjoyable to use. And so now it’s going into the trash can. That’s not going to be used again.
[00:29:23] And so you could have the best application, the best function, the best business around that. But if you don’t have a design [00:29:30] that is, to your point, invisible, just works, the buttons are where they should be. Things are easy to find. It’s almost a complete waste.
[00:29:38] Kao: Yeah. And what’s scary is that all of those decisions that you said happen in minutes, so people just [00:29:45] install their apps, try to use it, and if it doesn’t click for them in five minutes, then they just uninstall the app. So yeah, that’s why there’s a UX designer to help with these issues. Yeah. [00:30:00] Yeah. And they work with the UI designer to make things happen.
[00:30:03] To not make things like this happen.
[00:30:06] Scott: Now, you mentioned design being almost like an engineering skillset. So a little bit different than people may think you’re not an artist perhaps. But what [00:30:15] about what makes a good designer? So do you think that people are innately like born being good designers or do you think it’s more of a learned skill?
[00:30:23] Kao: I think as long as that person is interested in solving the right issue, then they can be a good [00:30:30] designer and doesn’t have to be like a great, visual designer, but they can be an, a good experience designer as well. So I think, yeah, that’s why it’s a bit tough to like, to evaluate it. [00:30:45] a digital designer, so to speak.
[00:30:47] So they have to have a lot of skills, right? They have to have like people skills to talk to their client, to talk to their project managers, they have to have a okay skill at least at visual designing. So [00:31:00] you pick up that visual designing skill from, from graphic design or something like that.
[00:31:04] And then you have to have a good way of passing information to be a good. designer and you might have to have a little bit of coding skill as well so that you can work with a [00:31:15] programmer. So I would say being a good designer is having, have, you have to have this open minded, open-mindedness to learn new things every day and just keep learning and try to collaborate with lots of other [00:31:30] people to get the product done.
[00:31:33] Scott: So what’s the most challenging part of being a designer?
[00:31:36] Kao: Yeah. Like I said, you have to be really open minded and never stop learning. Because there might be a new tech coming out tomorrow. There may be an AI that [00:31:45] upends whatever you have been learning for the past 10 years. And yeah, I think most designer who got stuck basically just didn’t really got their mind open to learn new things and just keep doing what they have been doing for the [00:32:00] past five or six years.
[00:32:01] When, when new innovations come and go within weeks, within days.
[00:32:06] When I first came to Thailand, I made a lot of mistakes.
[00:32:10] Scott: And I wanna, I’m hoping to extract out of you Kao some sort of lessons or [00:32:15] some guidance that you could provide on how a foreigner coming to Thailand, it’s either starting a business or taking a leadership role within a business can better work with talented Thai professionals like yourself and overcome some of the [00:32:30] common pitfalls. And so did any, does anything come to mind when you think of working with a foreigner, working with an American, a Brit, an Australian, any common things that you see there or mistakes?
[00:32:43] Kao: I think it’s [00:32:45] the definitely the different difference in culture between Thais and Western companies. So I think most Thai people are used to having a sort of hierarchy and hierarchy that is, that [00:33:00] must be respected. Not just, like the senior and junior, something like that, but they view their seniors as some sort of a like a father or a mother or someone who has to be respected, basically.
[00:33:13] And when they go [00:33:15] into a Western company, some may not get used to this kind of environment where people can just speak freely, right? And just say what’s on their mind. Or a junior can critique a senior’s work without having to fear for their lives. But most Thai who had, [00:33:30] who doesn’t have a lot of work experience might not know that.
[00:33:33] And they might. might just keep quiet in the room and they might not know when to speak or what they should speak or what to do without having to, risk their neck basically. So [00:33:45] I think any western companies that come to Thailand might have to have this process of easing people in and try to nudge Thai people to speak and then once they realize that they can speak, realize they can say what’s on their mind, then [00:34:00] things are just going to get better from there.
[00:34:03] And the reverse can happen as well. When an American for example, comes to work in a Thai company, they might just, see some glaring issues or flaws or the way they work. That is [00:34:15] really like they should be fixed right away. And they just go up to their senior and just speak that out loud.
[00:34:20] Like you should fix this. You should fix that. And Thai people might not be used to that. They might just, you might just get side eyed and just, your opinions might be [00:34:30] discarded right away because just of the way you were saying all those opinions, even if they’re right. So yeah, definitely definitely have to, a lot of adaptation.
[00:34:41] I think it might take weeks or a month to get used [00:34:45] to this difference in culture, but once they get that, I think any business can, can thrive in very easily.
[00:34:53] Scott: So you mentioned it sounds like building up trust. So the idea, like if I were to come in and say, hey, look, I [00:35:00] won’t, I’m going to operate this business differently than what you might be used to. I want everyone to speak up. I want, the team members to raise your hand. I don’t care how senior or junior you are.
[00:35:10] I want you to raise your hand and speak up. Is that sufficient or do you have to go further [00:35:15] than that?
[00:35:16] Kao: I think if you work with Thai people, you have to develop this kind of like a familial sense with them. You are not just their boss, you are their their kind uncle, their lovely aunt. [00:35:30] Try to keep up this rapport with the Thai team. And maybe joke around with them a bit so that they feel at ease in the office.
[00:35:38] So I have been noticing that my friends who are working in international companies, they really do well in [00:35:45] the office environment where their boss just joke around with the team and have this like father son daughter relationship with the team. Everyone respect you but also love to have fun with you and you are kind and you reward them for the good [00:36:00] work.
[00:36:00] I think this kind of thing is needed to work in Thailand. The family kind of thing. Where, I think in most Western company. Working with mostly Western people, they don’t really care about that much about being a family, right? You already have their own [00:36:15] family. They don’t have, they don’t need a second family in the office.
[00:36:17] So everyone just go and do their work and clock out and Thai people might not be used to that. Like they need to have this sort of support in the team. And this doesn’t just in tech [00:36:30] as well. I think my friend working in a fitness industry, they have, after the hours of cleaning up the gym and stuff like that, they have to have like at one hour after work to just talk and maybe just drink have [00:36:45] dinner together every day. Everyone just talks about the issues and everyone just come together and, talk things out and comfort each other and they love that. And my friend who was growing up in more of a Western sensibilities didn’t really [00:37:00] get all of those after work talk. He just need to get to back home as soon as possible. So he didn’t really get that. He just went home and then the next day they got, he got a bit chastised for it, basically. [00:37:15] So lots of culture you have to keep in mind of.
[00:37:20] Scott: Interesting. So when you I think the term when you said almost like an uncle or a friendly uncle, right? I think that’s very interesting. I think that’s a good way [00:37:30] to put it because it blurs the line a little bit between boss or manager and someone that cares about you on a personal level.
[00:37:38] And in fact, let me just throw in another thing that I find interesting in Thai culture in the work environment. [00:37:45] I recently had a few family members pass away and something that happens when there’s a funeral is that I think sometimes the boss, maybe this is only a bigger factories or bigger companies, but sometimes the manager of the boss will, give money to the family, sometimes significant amounts of money to the family to help [00:38:00] pay for their funeral.
[00:38:01] Maybe it’s inviting the manager of the boss to the weddings, right there, there are things like this where there seems to not be as much of a line between manager and boss and family. But a question for you, Kao, do you ever struggle with how to [00:38:15] draw those lines? And what I mean is, if a manager or an owner is getting on that personal side too, then, Is there the issue where you never quote finish work because let’s say that you’re accessible by [00:38:30] LINE and there’s a little more friendly, right?
[00:38:32] And then what the boss maybe send you a LINE message late at night or something like this to where now you’re always working. Is that an issue in Thai companies or in foreign companies where they don’t know how to draw that line?
[00:38:44] Kao: [00:38:45] I think at the end of the day, you come to office to work and get things done. And the boss has to, have to know that. And if he doesn’t know, I’ll keep this in mind and he would not basically be a good boss and seeing nothing gets done might actually [00:39:00] get that boss over the edge.
[00:39:01] And there might be some different in the way he reacts or treat the team afterwards. So I think that’s a balance there that the boss need to keep in check. And for me, I think the limit is [00:39:15] that when you feel like when you are a kind of like a junior or something like that, and the boss just keep coming to you with with maybe with jokes or activities that keeps you from your work, you have to be able to talk to them [00:39:30] to say that, Oh, I’m really busy right now.
[00:39:32] And they don’t get like in trouble for saying that. I think it is just going to be different in each of the office and if an office allow you to say that that’s really a good [00:39:45] one.
[00:39:45] Scott: Yeah. So I just, I’m going to go back to the example that you shared about maybe your friend that’s working at a gym or something. So they’re there at work, they’re working through the day and then maybe in the evening people are getting some drinks and they’re relaxing, whatever. [00:40:00] But I assume that is a line drawn where, yes, people are still in the office, but at that stage the work is done.
[00:40:06] And so what I’m saying is there a line drawn there where they’re not really expected to be working during that time. It’s like their family, their second family, [00:40:15] right there with their work family, having fun time, like letting off steam, relaxing, almost like a lunchtime where you aren’t necessarily only talking about work during lunchtime. Is there a line like that or no?
[00:40:27] Kao: There are definitely lines like that. Yeah. [00:40:30] And it’s going to be different in each companies, but in that specific example about that gym. I don’t think they they set the line very like very well because sometimes the party after work might [00:40:45] just go well over midnight or something like that.
[00:40:47] And that’s why he quit. And yeah, that there’s definitely a risk of a boss getting carried away or the team getting carried away, like spending time together too much and just, abandon their own [00:41:00] life or even some might even call it this like a poor work life balance because some of those workers have the family at home.
[00:41:08] They would actually spend, a lot of time in office or after, like after office party that [00:41:15] they got home late. And that happens a lot. I think it’s also a, an issue in like in countries like Japan as well.
[00:41:23] Scott: Yeah, it seems like a very
[00:41:25] Kao: Yeah. Tough line to balance for.
[00:41:26] Scott: Yeah, it’s a very tough line, right? So there’s a benefit of being [00:41:30] more familial and caring about employees and asking good questions. And as you said, joking and being understanding, right? But then you have to be careful about that line as well, because if you’re expecting too much off hours, or if you’re going out to lunch and [00:41:45] continuing to talk about business too much, then, you have to be careful there as well. Yeah, it’s a bit of a challenge. Do you have any other words of wisdom or maybe just advice for the two different groups here, either foreigners working with Thais. [00:42:00] I know we touched on a lot already. It’s fine if you don’t have any more, but foreigners working with Thais, any advice for them or ties working with foreigners?
[00:42:07] Kao: Yeah, I would just say that stereotypes might not sound might not sound good, but they are definitely there because a lot of [00:42:15] people relate to it or just lived it. So I would say to give yourself time to get acclimated with the culture. And if it works for you and you feel like you are a good fit that you don’t have to feel like you are [00:42:30] abandoning like yourself, then yeah give yourself time, a month or two.
[00:42:35] And then if it works out. But if you don’t, I don’t think you should keep working there just to have a job, right? If it isn’t a good fit, then it’s [00:42:45] better to just find a better fit somewhere else. And there’s a lot of companies out there in Bangkok.
[00:42:51] Scott: Yeah, absolutely. Now given the fact that you do freelance design work, you’ve done freelance design work for me. It’s just always been fantastic. I always go to [00:43:00] you. You’re my go to designer for everything, or just when I need advice on things. I think that you have that design mind and you’re able to spitball ideas with someone.
[00:43:08] So I think it’s really fantastic. But if anyone wants to reach out to you, maybe on the work front, what’s the best way to get [00:43:15] in touch?
[00:43:17] Kao: So I’m always on LinkedIn. Look up my name, Jirawat Tariya on LinkedIn, and we can talk a little bit there. And even contact me on email. OBSICO at [00:43:30] gmail.com. So we can talk we can talk there. I am always online. As I said, I am terminally online browsing Twitter, browsing Reddit and coming up with great memes.
[00:43:40] Excellent. Thank you so much for the time today, Kao. I always appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you for [00:43:45] having me.
[00:43:45] Scott: Well, I hope you enjoyed the episode. A big thank you to Kao for sharing his inspiring journey and insightful lessons with us. It’s clear that his dedication to design and effective communication has truly made an impact. If you’re in need of freelance design services or just want to connect with [00:44:00] Kao, I highly recommend you reach out to him.
[00:44:02] I have included links in the show notes. If you got value out of this episode, please subscribe, share, and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. I hope you learned something and I’ll catch you on the next one. [00:44:15]
