Leading with Agility and Purpose w/ Joana Button and Damian Sutton

Joana: [00:00:00] While all of our friends were just suffering in Australia, 

we were quite happy and content. And I just really admired the resilience the innovation and the strength of the Thais to just get on with it. 

we went, we’re gonna, we’re gonna live here forever. This is our retirement and we’re going to build a business here. And we made that decision and it was the best decision that we could have done 

Damian: I have to say, even for me it was a leap of faith because, I wasn’t 100 percent convinced that the experience would be good.

But I knew it would be different, and I knew two years of different would be good. Even if it’s not good, two years of experiencing something that’s removed from what you consider normal and having that perspective would be incredibly healthy for the girls. 

Scott: Hi there and welcome to Made It In Thailand, the podcast where we learn how to thrive in Thailand from top performers who have found success in the Kingdom. I’m your host Scott Pressimone. Today I am speaking with Joana [00:01:00] Button and Damian Sutton. Joana is the visionary Founder and Director of Simple Scalable Solutions, a digital technology and innovation agency, and Scalifi, an all in one customizable platform for SMEs.

With over 20 years of experience, she is a multi award winning strategist, problem solver, and business mentor who has driven growth and transformation across the travel, tourism, digital tech and SME sectors. Passionate about giving back, Joana actively supports the Australian and Thai communities through CSR and ISR work as the Vice President of the Australian Thai Chamber of Commerce.

Damian has worked for some of the largest travel tech companies in the world, such as Agoda and Wotif. With over 20 years of experience leading high performing global technology teams, Damian has successfully scaled businesses driving growth through technology. As the founder and CTO of Simple Scalable [00:02:00] Solutions and Scalifi, Damian excels at solving complex, technical challenges. 

Joana and Damian have accomplished a ton since they moved to Thailand just a few years ago, so I’m excited to dig deeper into their story. Without further ado, let’s jump into the interview.

Joana and Damian. Thank you both so much for joining us today on the Made it in Thailand podcast.

Damian: Thank you, Scott, for having us.

Joana: Thank you so much, Scott, for having us. 

Scott: The reason I invited you both and I roped you both in is because you are married, so you’re spouses, but you also happen to be business owners and leaders here in Thailand. 

So with that in mind, I love Joana. If, you can start out by how you two met.

Joana: How did we meet Damian? Well we met a very long time ago at a start up in Australia. Actually, I was one of the very first executives, [00:03:00] in this startup and everything went through me. And I remember the owners hiring a CTO and it didn’t go through me and I was really, concerned. cause I looked after everything.

I looked after operations, customer experience, the whole entire, expansion efforts of this startup. And that was really and it was probably the most awkward introduction because I was really mad that nobody told me about this guy. 

Damian: That was obvious. There was something off about, you just, it just felt like you weren’t prepared and weren’t ready and therefore almost a little bit guarded. And I didn’t understand the context. The owners had been so friendly and I’ve had all these great conversations. I didn’t realize that it was putting the director of HR off so badly that I hadn’t been able to go through her.

I think it was about a year before Joana let her guard down and thought, Hang on a minute, this guy’s doing some stuff that’s really [00:04:00] important.

I’m doing stuff that’s really important. Maybe we could work together and almost as a way of giving me some a little bit of showing that she’s willing to work with me. You can have my office Damian. I think that was the start of it. It was about a year after we had worked together and that was her way of saying, “you know what, you’re not too bad. Maybe we can work together.”

Joana: I was actually impressed by your, he implemented the, Agile Scrum methodology within the business. And I remember sitting in on this training and it was specifically for the developers and the BAs and we had a huge development team and you know it was a lot of where our money was going so I was curious and quite interested as to, we’re investing a lot of money in this development team, what is this guy going to show?

And when he implemented the Agile Manifesto, I just was really by, wow, I really like Agile Scrum methodology and the [00:05:00] principles and the philosophy of the Agile Manifesto. It really resonated with me. And I thought, why is it only going to the developers? Why should this not be implemented in the entire business and I just I really and that’s how I started to get to know Damian actually because we were we became best friends and that I just started asking a lot of questions about Agile Manifesto about the Agile Scrum methodology and I just was really quite curious about how could I implement this into the organization globally and not just within the development team?

So I started to think about it from a business perspective and just said, okay, look, this really works for the developers. This really works for software development, and iterations of the system that you’re building. But could I use this in, business process improvement in productivity, in efficiency within the operations?

And I think that’s where [00:06:00] I really thought, wow, this guy’s really, smart. And I, really wanted to use and, utilize his brain. And yeah, so that’s, where it all began is, in this startup in the, travel tech company. And, many, moons ago.

Scott: this is really funny because I’m just thinking about different relationship starts, And you know how you can, it can be so romantic and this thing happened and this is where I met and you say, Oh no, I, it was, great because I met a Scrum Master. 

Damian: Sounds special, doesn’t it? I do the sound of Scrum Master. and it’s a very important part of everything that is the way I organize teams. But the thought that someone would find Scrum Master as this attractive title, it blows my mind. But it did. I think, but, and, Joana talks about how she got to see someone very smart implement [00:07:00] some things and she wanted to say, how can I replicate those things?

The way I reflect on the, way that I work and what gets interpreted as being smart is actually an enthusiasm and a passion. That’s actually what I think Jonah was, observing is that, that, The agile way and the scrum methodology, it turns a lot of old school thinking on its head. in, in the sense that what I had come into was an organization that had some success with their IT team, but a lot of frustrations with regards to the opaqueness of getting stuff done.

It was always, they were in a room that was separated from the business. And you, really had to struggle to get any information regarding timelines, progress, how they were going to approach things. Which meant that there was huge delays on say, get, look, give me two months and I’ll show you [00:08:00] what it looks like.

And then it could be wrong. And it’s Oh my God, why didn’t we communicate more frequently? So when I entered the organization, my enthusiasm, my passion for agile and scrum. It, I think the reason it got so well accepted is because it’s about communication, transparency, being quick to, to, change lanes.

And it really, it, and most importantly, there’s a sense of joy. I think the main reason why I’m so, focused on, on it as a positive way to do things is because it provides the business value from a transparency and, visibility point of view, from an engineering point of view. It’s almost like gamifying success and being effective.

And I really lean into that and where I’ve had the most joy in my career is when you’ve got a well oiled machine that really gets the joy out of making continuous improvement and [00:09:00] progress. There is a satisfaction that comes with that. And I think that’s what Joana saw. Not the intelligence, but actually the passion, the joy, and, the.

The effects, the positive effects of this and she was quite right to say, why can’t this be applied to non software engineering teams?

Joana: Absolutely. I think, you know what it is. It was, transparency. It was more about transparency because, I’d been in the business for a few years before you, and I started the business at a very, small base, and in and really helping the owners. And I started with them as the director of HR and then I moved into the director of operations and then was leading their expansion efforts.

And one of the things that was really frustrating because I love solving problems, but one of the really critical junctures that we got to when you’re growing and scaling a business is we just kept seeing a glass ceiling. And it, and it was like, why can’t we break past this glass ceiling?

And [00:10:00] I saw this kind of piece of the puzzle where it was because there was no transparency or visibility of what the organization was doing, that allowed us to all work towards the same goal. So we knew where we wanted to go. We just didn’t know. We couldn’t see. And I think with the Agile Scrum methodology and certainly the Agile Manifesto, those principles, it was all about, visibility, transparency, collaboration, making sure that there was constant Interactions between teams of people so that you knew exactly what the left hand was doing with the right hand and it was just that was what I was like, Wow, we could, certainly use this throughout the whole entire business because I wanted to know, and at the time we were disrupting a very, prehistoric dinosaur kind of [00:11:00] industry. We were implementing in travel, very, supply chain, almost like it was, aggregating all this information in travel and going to the retail travel agent and saying, Hey, this is all the information at your fingertips.

And they weren’t used to that, so we were really disrupting an industry. And so we needed to really act quickly and we needed to respond quickly. with agility. And that’s really why I loved the Agile Manifesto because it was like, okay, this is going to make us agile. It’s going to help us to iterate.

It’s going to help us to make mistakes and fail fast and move quickly. And it’s okay. And then, and expand and do all of these things that I thought, okay, this is what we needed. We needed something that had a little bit more bite, transparency and visibility for the organization. And, Yeah, this is, we’re going to communicate this way moving forward.

Scott: No, I love that. I’ve seen that done in [00:12:00] organizations too. It’s the same thing. It comes in on the development side and then you see the benefit of it and then all of a sudden now you want to expand it. And it’s the opposite of this, siloed thing that can tend to happen, right? So if you have a siloed development team or you have a siloed sales team, then the people that don’t understand that department or don’t understand what’s going on, to your point, Joana, the transparency, then everyone’s saying, Hey, get that thing done.

Hey, developers, get Go off and go into a cave and come out with this. And if they don’t know what’s going on, they don’t know what it takes. then all of a sudden there’s disappointment, there’s lack of collaboration, and so it really sounds like agile really transformed the whole business from within.

Essentially, you were the plant there, Damian. Maybe that’s why they let you get past, Joana. But, you were the plant. You got in there. You got the virus in there. And then, all of a sudden, it expanded in a good way. that’s really exciting. Now, I want to transition because I think Agile is really important.

But then, there’s also some other areas. that when it comes to leadership and [00:13:00] I guess the values you both hold, that are also probably important and leads into business as well. So I’m curious when it comes to other beliefs that you have and how to lead within an organization, what things do you think you, you both believe in and have in common when it comes to that?

Joana: 

Damian: Joana is honestly someone that I’ve looked up to and have been inspired by when it comes to leadership. while I’ve obviously got my, I’ve got my technical hats that I lean into when it comes to being a technology leader, there are certain things that, that, are not universal.

When it comes to my universal approach, I honestly have to say that the person that I look up to is Joana. So I would, I think Joana can provide some inspiration here because she’s inspired me the entire time that I’ve known her. But leadership [00:14:00] is certainly something that, she is passionate about.

And, honestly, we, night after night, we can spend hours talking about leadership. I’ll lJoananna lead the way.

Joana: Oh, thank you. for me, I don’t know if it comes naturally. I think I’m such an inquisitive mind and I like to ask questions and to listen and learn. so likewise, I think with Damian. He’s the type of person that takes in enormous amounts of information quite quickly and, understands the problems, the crux of the matter.

And I go to him and I, he almost, I asked him a question and he will digest that information and, give me some straight answers and a very simplistic way. And I guess from my leadership style, I’ve always been that way. I’ve always asked the questions. I’ve always been like, [00:15:00] what do you think?

We don’t always agree, but in terms of our leadership, we love, and this is why I believe the companies that we’ve worked for as entrepreneurs and the companies that we’ve helped grow and scale, always been very big believers in people and culture and leadership, leadership, development.

We’ve always been, I, I truly believe, You can’t do anything without the people and you can’t certainly be successful without empowering those around you. and I take a lot of, for me, I, I get inspired and Damian says he gets inspired by me and almost his muse, but I’m, I get inspired by Damian because he’s so intelligent in the way that he thinks about things.

and he’s so empathetic. and I’m a little bit more business and hard headed. he’s more empathetic [00:16:00] and, but he does look into the detail. I think we bounce off each other in terms of our leadership style, but what brings us together is We want to do things for a common good, for the greater good, for a common purpose, for a why, so that for us is really important.

And as long as our values are aligned, and there is an alignment of our values, there’s an alignment of values with our clients and customers, and certainly of an alignment with our people and the people that we lead, It just makes it infinitely easier. so I think I don’t know about you, Damian, but I just think we have commonality in knowing that we want to add value and give back to people.

and whether it’s through sharing knowledge, whether it’s doing, CSR and volunteering, whether it’s giving money, [00:17:00] or whether it’s just sitting down with someone and mentoring them through a problem. We just want to give so much of ourselves to other people and to businesses, because we truly believe we can add value.

And, If they drink the Kool Aid, they drink the Kool Aid. If they don’t, But we just want to walk away feeling good that we gave it our all. And I think, I’ve always been a big believer in people over profits and, just, Giving so much more than that you give because I also believe that it comes back to you 10x, you know So that’s my where my leadership is more of a servant leadership and it’s almost What can I do to help this person rather than what can I get from it?

Scott: Of course. And I also want to get to the yin and yang that you both bring to businesses. Damian, I would say that, correct me if I’m wrong, but you’re the [00:18:00] technologist of the group. And, and 

Joana: I thought I was the technologist

Scott: Damian, could you describe how you see the mold that you fit and the part of the business that you hold up and then the part of the business that you think Joana holds up?

Damian: Alright, I’m definitely not the looks, as, as far as, different, the yin and yang. We talked, touched on the fact that from a leadership and inspiration point of view, that’s where Joana is shining the torch. And honestly, I don’t really like being in the light. So I’m glad that I’ve got someone that shines so brightly as a partner because sometimes I, I’m so focused on the doing.

on understanding the best [00:19:00] way to, to build stuff or the latest technology and really understanding like when I see a clock, all I want to do is pull it apart and understand how it works. And that requires an awful lot of attention to detail. As a metaphor, I do that for almost everything that I touch in technology.

I’m not really a surface level type of guy when it comes to understanding technology. When there’s a new thing that everyone’s talking about, there is a surface level that is exciting and glossy. But I just want to get in deep and understand how it works so it can, so to work out how it can be applied in ways that are not the common standard way.

And that can be painful for people that, and I actually find it enjoyable. And then I, then, We come together, Joana and I, and while she’s shining a light, she’s coming up with grand plans. I’m [00:20:00] working on understanding the nuance of how things work. And then we come together. And then, and when you bridge this, personality that is inspiring and strategic and developing business relationships and interacting with people with unique problems.

And you’ve got someone that is very happy spending hours and hours and hours of the day just being hidden in a cave and really understanding the nuance of things. But then having I don’t know. It’s somewhat of an ability to be able to communicate with Joana and with other people. I don’t lean into it.

It’s not the thing that I do naturally. But from a professional point of view, it has been something that I’ve been able to lean into as a strength. Even if it’s not my place of joy being in the spotlight, Joana will pull me into the spotlight and then we’ll combine it. everything that she’s been focused on, everything that I’ve [00:21:00] been focused on, it comes together.

And once you combine it, I think it’s something special. But I’m very much the, guy in the chair in the background that has a, microphone connected to me talking to Joana when she’s out in the field. If she was a spy, she’s the field agent, I’m the man in the chair.

Scott: Oh, I love that. I love that. now since we’re really talking about Thailand and, of course you all met in Australia, but I want to make that transition into Thailand. And so I’m curious what inspired you both to decide to make that move from Australia to Thailand. 

Joana: I Always I we have two different opinions on this because last night we talked about this and you know I said that I would you know was kicking and screaming wanting to move to Thailand, and he was like, I don’t think you were kicking and screaming, but I really, we, wanted to do the right thing by girls in terms of there was an opportunity for, Damian.

We were working on a travel tech, [00:22:00] startup actually for six months and we’d invested a lot of money in technology and, Damian got a phone call from Agoda, and essentially said, look, We want you to come to Thailand. Did not expect it at all. we were doing our own thing and it certainly wasn’t in our bingo card at all.

but

Damian: it was pretty unexpected.

Joana: incredibly unexpected. And, but when the opportunity arose, I’ve always been the type of person that when the universe speaks to you through opportunities, you never say no, you say yes, because it’s almost trying to lead you to where you sh to, to your purpose or to your goals. And I’m a really big believer in that.

And so I thought, okay, there’s an opportunity here. we’ve got two young girls. We want to be able to give them, and we had a great life in Australia. And I guess it was that decision to move to Asia. Like I’ve never lived in Asia. I’ve lived in Europe before. Damian’s lived in [00:23:00] Thailand before. He knows and speaks language.

He was here for many years, but I just never done that move before. So I was very, nervous, you could say about the move. And I said, and I gave him a caveat saying, okay, if you can just do a two year sort of contract and see how it goes, we’ll go for two years. and I guess it wasn’t a huge inspirational move.

It was almost like, okay, let’s take this step and take this move for our girls in terms of giving them a little bit of culture shock. a little bit of an experience. We’ve always believed in giving our girls experiences rather than things. and to learn a different language, learn a different culture to be in this cosmopolitan, beautiful city.

And, again, I was nervous about it and I was, cautious at what am I going to do there, all my clients, all my, everything that I’ve known is, has been in Australia. so I was [00:24:00] really quite moved about it, but as soon as we got here, it was pretty It was the best decision and best move we’ve ever made.

and I don’t say that lightly because we gave up, quite a bit in, Australia to come to Thailand. And I just, looking back, it was the best decision because it was just before COVID and then COVID hit and I’d never felt so assured being in Thailand during COVID. We were able to get groceries delivered.

We were able to still walk around in our condo and complex because there was a, park downstairs. It was the most enjoyable COVID period, I could say for us as a family of four. And I thought this is the best move. And while all of our friends were just suffering in Australia, and they were just complaining and depressed, we were quite grateful.

And we were quite [00:25:00] happy and content. And our kids were like, Oh, COVID’s COVID. And we just, and I just really admired the resilience the innovation and the strength of the Thais to just get on with it. And I, that really inspired me from an opportunity business perspective and an opportunity perspective.

a, Hey, I could really stay here for the rest of my life. And really, and that’s what the decision that we made is that to you is we threw that away and we went, we’re gonna, we’re gonna live here forever. This is our retirement and we’re going to build a business here. And we made that decision and it was the best decision that we could have done as a family, us as individuals. And certainly for our, career and for our business, because I’ve met so many people here, I’ve been able to, we can talk about it later, but, certainly from a community perspective for Australian Thai Chamber of Commerce, I’m, in love with Thailand and Bangkok in general.[00:26:00] 

Scott: Wow. Now, Damian, since you had a background in Thailand, the, when you brought Joana kicking and screaming in her own words, to Thailand, she seems to have delivered an amazing, thing as to why it was so great. And I’m just curious. I, like to, have the positivity, but I also want to ground that a little bit.

I’m curious if you can share. Any challenges that you faced as a family and knowing again, you came in a course with understanding of Thailand. It sounds like some language skills already, but as a family, any challenges that you faced during that transition.

Damian: Yeah, it was super concerning seeing that I knew that I was, like, I knew what I was getting into. And it was a bit of a leap of faith, for, Joana and the girls. But, and I have to say, even for me it was a leap of faith because, I wasn’t 100 percent convinced that the experience would be good.

But I knew it would be different, and I knew two years of different would be good. I actually went in [00:27:00] thinking even if it’s not good, two years of experiencing something that’s removed from what you consider normal and having that perspective would be incredibly healthy for the girls. and best case scenario, it was, it would be great.

And I’m very pleased to say that it, it, like some of my concerns, About the girls and Joana they evaporated very quickly due to the things that Joana just described But Bangkok has evolved a lot too. I tell you what It’s not the same place that I lived like when I lived in Bangkok, maybe 14 15 years ago It blows my mind and I actually love it.

it’s one of the things that just fills me with so much energy. Seeing a city grow and develop so quickly. I come from a very small country town in Australia and there’s something about coming from that background and this small town, everybody knows each other’s [00:28:00] names. There’s, you go to school and the community is so tight.

I don’t know why, but when I became an adult, I just wanted the extreme opposite of that. And Bangkok is that. There’s nothing, it evolves into this beautiful new thing every year that it’s always evolving. I don’t recognize the city from when I lived here before. But all of that in a positive way.

Coming here with the family, being able to find our lane, which is maybe challenging. You talk about what are the challenges. There’s so many lanes in Bangkok. There is not one perspective or experience that you’ll have in, Bangkok. So, one of the things I encourage people to do is to, realize that if you land and then you explore a particular part of Bangkok and you think that might not be for you, just know that there are 15 other experiences as far as your Bangkok or, Thailand life can be.

You might not even like the city. [00:29:00] this country is incredible when it comes to the opportunities for you to find your lane, your happiness, your day to day experience that, that gives you joy. I don’t, I can’t think of a place where you’ve got more options than Thailand, where you, where if you don’t like this lane, try a different part of Bangkok and have a completely different experience.

I think the great example of that is probably education. We found that for the kids and finding a school, an international school. We went to one, I won’t name them, but we went to the first one and great school, but it just didn’t feel right for us. We’re a sporting family where we come from Australia for goodness sake.

Joana: So I, and that’s about finding your lane and finding a community that fits with you, finding an international school that fits with you, finding. Friends that fit with you. And I think that was my biggest challenges. We grew up in [00:30:00] Australia, I grew up in Australia, Damian was born there and and it’s like, how do you traverse through getting, making new friends, the girls making new friends, finding a school that was going to, feel like a community.

And, we had to change schools in the end. And then we now we found a really good school with, a beautiful community. I just think that there are always going to be challenges when you move to a new country. I just don’t give up on it. If the first, school wasn’t great or if the first place he moved to, it may not be Bangkok, but it could be Phuket.

It could be Pattaya, whatever it might be. But yeah, I think there’s always going to be challenges. And I also think one of the things that I do urge expats and foreigners is really to give it some time. People automatically assume some the worst, in the first 3 months. I hate it.

I don’t like it, but if you give it some time, you can [00:31:00] find the beauty in the place. even like for now, although like we’re all, it’s quite hot outside and we’re always in air conditioning. we’ve just found some amazing places outdoors in Thailand that is beautiful. That you can get fresh air.

I love Khao Yai for example, play golf there and there’s just so many things that you could do on the weekend as well. So it’s not just living in this bubble of Bangkok, but you can certainly explore and find your way around Thailand. But yeah, we absolutely love it here.

Scott: I love that you turn that challenge into an opportunity, right? As business owners tend to do, right? But, because I do hear those things time and time again as people saying, Oh, there’s too much pollution, too much smog, I don’t get as much nature as I like. there aren’t as many opportunities, whatever, and I think that they are, as you, both said, not actually giving it a chance, because there are so many different areas, and if you don’t like the smog of Bangkok, and there’s more remote [00:32:00] opportunities, then as you said, Phuket could be a good location, Khao Yai, there’s Chiang Mai, there’s so many places you could go, and yeah, just don’t, paint it with such a broad brush stroke and say there, there are those things.

And I think another thing that comes up a little bit, and Joana, you alluded to this as well, is giving it a chance to, and adapting a little bit to it. Because I think it’s a little bit, I know for me as an American, from the east coast of America, so we’re fast talkers. I’m talking much, much slower than when I came here.

But in any case, fast talkers and fast walkers. And something that Very frustrated with was the sidewalks and, and how I couldn’t go up an escalator because everyone was standing on the escalators, right? There were these things and I think part of it, like some people go into the path of getting angry about it and upset about it.

Why are people standing here? Why are people walking so slowly? Why do I have to do X Y Z paperwork? And I think a lot of it is. some things you can move and, change and find a different group, but then sometimes you can, you need to [00:33:00] accept a little bit, and when you start to accept those things, life becomes, quite a bit better here, right?

Joana: Yeah, I, really, the sabai sabai mentality at first where it was really quite even getting a coffee. I just want to get in and get out, but everybody’s happy to stand around, wait around. I’m like, I’m come on, I need to go. And I, actually really appreciate the Thais for that because I’ve become more grounded and I’ve become less fast paced.

Like you were saying, I really love that. I really love the fact that, you know what? It’s not going to kill you if you wait for five more minutes, and, you can, look around and you can be a little bit bored. But I think the Western lifestyle and, with the West, we just have a tendency to go, We don’t take the time to just sit. To relax, to be patient. And I really have learned a lot from the Thais. from that, because yeah, [00:34:00] I was like you Scott, I was always like, just get out of my way. I need to get there fast. I need to get my coffee. I don’t want to wait. And I’d see these long lines of coffees or long lines in the BTS.

I’m like, I don’t have time to wait, but you know what? You can really, feel. A very big difference if you just be sabai sabai, just really be chilled. I’ve learned, yeah, a lot, from the Thais doing that. 

Yeah, it seriously is a personal choice. if you have a certain way of looking at the world and you want to travel to the other side of the world and expect people to adapt to you, you’re always going to find it challenging. It’s never going to work. You’re going to be frustrated every minute of the day and maybe living in a country that’s on the other side of the world isn’t for you.

Damian: But if you are willing to pause for a moment, reflect on the fact that there are some things that are the [00:35:00] same that you can relate to. There are some things that are very different. And just maybe, it can work for you. If you just leave yourself open to saying, let’s try slowing down a little bit.

Let’s try not being in a rush. Let’s try driving in traffic that is so different to my own country. I, at first it was really shocking and now I’m, it’s so different, but I, it’s okay. It’s, just different. Different. It’s not bad. It’s, quite interesting. Actually. I just have to be careful that when I go back to Australia, I don’t try to merge into traffic, and expecting people to stop because they won’t stop. If there’s, so much beauty in this country. Just so I’m just saying, if you expect things to be the same, you’ll probably always be disappointed. If you open yourself up to picking and choosing, if you like it and accepting that it’s different, then there’s potentially something [00:36:00] very beautiful.

And for Joana, and I, the, sum of everything of those differences and the, similarities. We love every bit of it. It just, it sings to us and we opened ourselves to, being able to, be in an environment that’s very different from where we came from and adapting to it.

Scott: Absolutely. Now, on the business side of things, you both mentioned that you had, you were working together in the travel industry, right? And think you’ve also then worked with on more of the consulting and advisory side of helping small businesses. I want to lead into doing business in Thailand and, essentially the types of companies that you work with and the types of companies that you help.

But that really starts with challenges, which we’ve talked about in the past. And Maybe Joana, we can start with what are some of the most common challenges that you’ve seen from whether it’s, I know you’ve worked with [00:37:00] startup businesses for sure. but also maybe some smaller and midsize businesses.

And are there any commonalities of the most common challenges that you’ve seen those business owners or leaders face that you’ve maybe had to help companies with?

Joana: I guess to really answer that question, you really need to understand our why. and I think for us, and going back to the travel tech startup, it was, my baby. It was, I helped the business grow 10x, in five years, and it was one of the most incredibly successful success stories, in the travel industry in Australia.

And I think after we both left, two years after we left, the company went down and it, for a myriad of reasons, but it really affected me and, and, then this is actually. just before COVID. And so it went down, it went under, for whatever reason, [00:38:00] financial mismanagement, whatever it might be.

And then COVID happened and it really hit the travel industry. And it was a double blow for me because we’ve spent all of our careers within the travel, tourism, hospitality space. And for me, personally and Damian can talk to you from your perspective. But we were just both really devastated about this business going under and, how it imploded.

And, I, think it was almost like was it because the both of us had left? And I just don’t believe that because people leave a business that it should implode. And for us, it was almost like, it had a bit of a, a fire in my belly. And it inspired me to really go. How can we help businesses, whether they’re a small, mom and dad, retailer, travel agent, how can we help these small businesses to [00:39:00] sustainably grow and scale?

Because when you think about of a startup, it’s, almost exponential. It’s almost this hustle culture, work 24 seven and make it grow. And everybody, I don’t care what you’re doing, put everything down and just do it. This is your life. And that’s what it was like for five years. So although I was there for five years, it was almost 10 years.

You could take off 10, 15 years of my life because I was working till three, four o’clock in the morning, getting up at six, seven. I was a single mom as well. So I really dedicated all my hours to this business and to this venture. and, that’s where it started. when it. When it imploded, I had something in me that was almost like a fire that I just wanted to help businesses to become more sustainable, that it didn’t have to be this hustle culture, that it didn’t have to be this exponential growth, that you could grow, no, not just 10x, but 2x, 3x, and it’s [00:40:00] okay.

How do we do that? and that’s where it started. So I just wanted to give you a little bit of that context where it’s our why is to help small to medium sized businesses to grow and scale sustainably. And how do we do that? And I guess when and so in 2017 I started consulting and it was, I guess consulting in a way where it was digital transformation projects.

It was looking at how do we take this mom and dad retail shops and get them into the digital age, get them into having a digital footprint, getting them coming up against the giants where there was like aggregators, where there was huge amount of technology out there. And how do they compete with that?

and those are some of the challenges I have faced within the travel industry. And then I started speaking to other small businesses and small business owners. And the, issues or the problems and challenges remain the same. [00:41:00] They lacked time. They lacked resources, money and it’s certainly the development team.

they didn’t have huge amounts of money to put aside to getting a development team to getting someone like Damian to come in and helping them build a platform or an application or a system for them. resource constraints, let’s call it. business also business owners and businesses also lacked.

They lacked the visibility. We talked about visibility and transparency earlier. They didn’t have the visibility because they were juggling multiple tools and systems. They had a sales tool, they had a marketing tool, they have, a back office solution. And they were all off the shelf platforms, but none of it really talked to one another and we go back to, our core value within, helping businesses to go and get even in our own [00:42:00] businesses.

Where can we say the data and information? Where do we look at to make better decisions for the business? and how do we take all of this information and put it together so that we can package it up to a business owner and say, Hey, your sales are down because of this. You don’t have enough leads coming through.

through your sales and marketing efforts, or your service delivery or your customer experience is terrible because instead of responding back within 24, 48 hours, your team are delivering it within seven days. You’re not responding fast enough. We just, the challenges that small to medium sized businesses are facing, which is very much the fragmented systems, the limited budgets, the limited, tech expertise.

I certainly don’t have tech expertise. and I’m lucky that I could go home and say, build me this and he’ll go, yes, sure. We’re not quite like that. we have a bit of a, [00:43:00] and but, People don’t have that. Small businesses don’t have that, and so that’s really how Simple Scalable Solutions started.

We really wanted to go, how do we help these businesses get into the digital age, help them with their technology, with their data and information so that they can make better decisions. And that’s where Simple Scalable Solutions was formed, in 2017. But then from here, and being in Thailand, we’ve noticed that because of these fragmented systems, there is no way for businesses to see everything all in one.

And that’s why we’ve created our own platform called Scalifi, where you can connect and combine all of your tools and your platforms into the one platform. So you can see everything through sales efforts and marketing efforts and your leads coming through and certainly allows your teams to make better, faster decisions.[00:44:00] 

Scott: I love that you pointed out the importance of having visibility. We were talking about visibility back when we were discussing Agile and how people living in silos is a tough thing. And then for the data side, how can you make good decisions? And to be honest, I’ve worked also very similarly for the last 10 years or so, consulting and guiding and advising small businesses.

And I think you hit the nail on the head there, Joana. I’ve seen the same things. And I think sometimes we can think or owners can think these are, specific to their industry or specific to them. And in reality, the challenges seem to be very similar. And, and really you just need someone that has some experience to pull that information together so you can make better decisions.

So I can certainly understand the importance of Scalifi and, and making sure people can make educated decisions and not just intuition. Cause I would argue that intuition is important as a business owner. But not everything’s intuition. For instance, maybe an interview with a candidate. Use some intuition.

Do I trust [00:45:00] this person? Is this person going to be a good fit for our business? That’s intuition. But, guess what? If you’re using intuition to make decisions with your financials, you might run into some problems. so you’ve got to be able to see everything. Now, Damian, I want to hand it over to you because it sounds like Joana had a great idea with Scalifi, right?

But she’s not the technologist to build it. So I want to get your take on this side of things of number one, was this also issue that you saw with businesses, but you understand the importance of, the data and then, how did you go about developing a platform that is used by owners?

Yeah, I certainly can relate because I get pulled into a lot. Joana is, interacting with so many. individuals, business owners, small businesses, medium sized businesses, large businesses, having all sorts of fruitful, interesting conversations. And it’s so common that she’ll pull [00:46:00] me in to have a conversation, to have a look at a system or the way that a small business is, organizing their data.

Damian: And more often than not, it’s actually so low, low tech that more common than not that people are using Google sheets or Excel spreadsheets to really say, look, that’s my visibility of the data. And Mary will update that every day manually and may or may not make a typo. And then we’ll make critical decisions based on that. And these are businesses that are small to medium size. So that what they’ve been able to do is they’ve been able to tackle a problem. They’ve solved a problem that they’re, successful. They’re not going anywhere, but because of the way that they’ve organized their systems, it’s really impossible for them to increase any more speed. And I use the metaphor of a car, and you’re [00:47:00] trying to get the car to go to new record breaking speeds, but with the car that you’ve built, the wheels are shaking. And if you go any faster, with that Excel spreadsheet or Google sheet that you’re using for your data, it will completely explode, because you’re going to be making bigger decisions on data that may or may not be accurate or correct. And then all of a sudden you get that nosedive that Joana talked about with regards to, to, to how do you go from massively successful 10x growth to, to zero? it’s where you don’t have things talking to each other in such a way that you have the transparency to make objective decisions.

And what’s interesting, going all the way back to leadership style and what makes a good leader, it’s actually fueled into this platform, which is one way that you provide clear [00:48:00] leadership is by externalizing the objective and the, measurement of success. And it’s not based on your subjective opinion as to make me proud.

And as, as your leader, if you make me proud, then you’re successful. What you do is you externalize and measure and make it transparent. Look everybody, we have a common goal. And here it is for us to see, let’s rally together. And now that external to just me, what our goal is and how we’re measuring it, let’s get creative about how we achieve it.

And don’t be, don’t think that I’m going to have all the answers, but know that you’re going to have a clear indication of how we’re progressing towards our goals. And so the platform, It’s almost taking our leadership style when it comes to externalizing your motivation motivating factors. Making it so that it’s not based on someone’s perspective, [00:49:00] but you’re actually making it objective and data driven. All of a sudden you’ve got you’re multiplying people the amount of people that can come up with creative ideas as to how to achieve that because you have clear indication, did this work or did it not work?

And with Agile, you try to get that feedback as quickly as physically possible. You don’t overcommit and say, we won’t get feedback until three months later. that could be your doom if you, don’t get feedback for three months. You want the feedback to be as quick as possible. So all of these experiences, whether it be through our professional life or interacting with businesses, our leadership style, that is all got fueled into building this platform and for months and months, maybe even a year, Joana has been coming back with and putting on her whiteboard, we need a system that does this. And then the next week she’d say, Oh, but it [00:50:00] also needs to do this. And I’m just focused on, my own work.

And I’m going, Joana, it’s just too much, like you can’t have one thing that does everything. And the reality is by interacting with businesses, getting pulled into different conversations, providing some high level guidance as to the different options that are out there. We learnt that, you can actually leverage off, and, stand on top of a lot of great technologies.

Like with. I couldn’t say AI like I couldn’t build my own AI system, but the way that tools are available for people that really are techie to digest and connect and combine and then and provide, value. that’s one of the things that we’ve been doing for a while and we’re just translating that into to building something that has everything brought together and is capable of feeding into [00:51:00] other things.

Like as, a platform builder, there are certain worlds that we’re very comfortable saying we just want to integrate with. We don’t want to get an accounting certification software license.

But we do want to make it so that is something that is nestled in and very easy for a business to be able to integrate with and make it so that their one view is fully connected and not manually into interacting with other systems.

Scott: Oh, yeah. this makes me think, too, that, businesses, I think, or teams within businesses can get the shiny object syndrome, and what happens is you end up with all these different tools, and then, guess what? It’s usually part of the business that then has to figure out how to connect those tools, and that can be a mess.

I would say part of the value you may be providing here is, yeah, integrations are tough sometimes. integrating features into a, into a product is, even harder. The alternative to using a platform that, and a team that’s going to do [00:52:00] that for you is you trying to do it yourself. And, that can be quite challenging.

I face that myself sometimes. you get onto a certain CRM that you’re using and then it doesn’t integrate with this other tool you’re using. and then everyone is at a standstill. And as you mentioned, then Sally has to then enter that thing manually in some spreadsheet to make it function.

Damian: Fred emailed Sally to enter it into the system that she has access to and. Yeah, that’s, what we’ve seen. and that, that word integration has become so easy. so with Scalifi, it’s about making it so that we, leverage off like really low level coding integrations, rather than these tools that, that almost a band aid.

They stick things together and, integrate with them. That, that inevitably will become a problem when it stops working, last Monday, but no one noticed and therefore things aren’t synchronized. So with Scalifi, we’re really, leaning into, to, to, to doing [00:53:00] tight, knit integrations that, that, that are really leveraging the low level programming, options that are out there versus this very high level Zapier type connection.

That’s a common thing. There’s this Zapier, connect anything with anything. And while that is an option that gets you to a point, the wheels will fall off. They really will, whether it be cost or it just not working, that type of integration is going to be a stumbling, stumbling point in the future.

The wheels will fall off if you try to scale that. so we’re trying to prepare businesses to go further and beyond, those pain points.

Joana: I just want to add to that and Damian, doesn’t, big himself up enough, so I will do it for him. But what we are really good at, and particularly Damian, more so than myself, [00:54:00] I’m the visionary. he’s the guy that would spend countless hours and hours, days, years, understanding something.

And I just, he takes in a huge amount of information and really understands that technology or that business problem and he takes that information and then he puts it into, cuts it up into bite sized pieces for people to understand and he’s become almost an expert in these technologies where he might take a week just to learn about, let’s say, Zapier, for example, and really understanding the, Looking, beyond just the surface level, but going under the hood and understanding how it works, why it works, and that is, I think that is what you get with the platform.

It’s almost like our brains, our experience, we call it SWAS, software with a service, you’re getting our support. And, it was really to address these common pain points that [00:55:00] SMEs face, by your experience. getting the technology brain that Damian has. He never wrote a single piece of note when he went to university because he’s like a CPU.

He takes all of this information in and then he digests it and then he takes it and he puts it into simple, scalable, solutions that allow, businesses to go, Oh, okay, I see where I need to do or what I need, and I think that’s what you get with Scalifi using his brain.

You don’t have to do the hours of reading or hours of understanding something because he’s already done it, and, he really mastered that technology and if he hasn’t, it will only take him a day or maybe a week to really master something.

Damian: It is complexity that gets in the way of scaling, like we, we purposely describe like when it came to saying, okay, what do we call our business? Simple Scalable Solutions was perfect because the biggest thing that gets in the way of a small to medium sized business from being able [00:56:00] to scale is that they are overwhelmed with complexity.

And what I devote all of my energy into is taking a complex situation, breaking it down, simplifying it, getting everyone to be able to connect with the reality of the situation without being overwhelmed. Complexity can be this, like this fog that gets in your, in the way of you truly understanding.

So it’s through simplification of a complex problem that you can scale. And then all of a sudden you reach new heights because you’re not weighed down by just trying to keep this complex process going. Obviously when people get burnt out, you can’t just add new people to a problem because there’s so much complexity.

It’s just the old dogs that actually understand the complexity that know it. Not really easy to get new people in. yeah, very appropriately we [00:57:00] focus on simplification being the pathway to scalable success.

Scott: I love that. And I do, I’ve seen some software solutions that, can do a lot of things, but they do get so complex that now they’re no longer functional. And I think this is, again, the superpower that you both have is that Damian, I think, since you also lead teams, you might be focusing on how stuff works and maybe the very cool things that you can do, but then you then have to moderate that to then be, how will people actually use it?

And I think you already have a good level of, being able to bridge that gap. And then you add on top of that, Joana’s kind of executive leadership position, where it’s thinking in terms of how the use cases are going to be and how we’re going to make it simple, how we’re going to make it so that different team members in different areas can use software. 

Now it’s a matter of making it functional and not overcomplicating it and getting that extra view just to make sure it actually [00:58:00] is really in a good place because yeah, complexity can kill productivity, in a lot of ways. Now I also think you all did something really impressive here in Thailand because for business owners or people operating businesses in Thailand, there are different ways to, start a business here, right? And you can have a business abroad that you’re bringing into Thailand. You can have, you’re just registering a regular new business here in Thailand from the start. But in this case, BOI is just one of those elusive things that some companies go down the path and some don’t because it seemingly is too expensive, too complex, whatever it may be.

If Joana, can you describe first for the audience that doesn’t know what B. O. I. means and then why you went about, going through this process for your new business here?

Joana: Yeah, so for those who don’t know what BOI, is, means, it’s a Board and Investment scheme for [00:59:00] foreigners to own 100 percent of their business. in Thailand, as you mentioned, there’s various ways to, start a business, but one of the easiest ways is, you can easily start a business in Thailand, but it needs to be owned.

51 percent by Thai person and 49 percent by the foreigner. Now that doesn’t work for us because we’re both foreigners and we want it to be 100 percent privately owned by Damian and myself. So the trickiest way to go about it, is through BOI. it’s not, easy by any means, and rightly so because, the Thai government and the Board of Investment should be picky in, in, as to what kind of investment is going into Thailand?

Does it fit and meet the needs of the Thai people? And certainly the growing, economy and the [01:00:00] development of their people. And, and lucky for us, and particularly with Damian, he’s got a skill set in software development, and in technology, and in digital and innovation. So it’s, from that regard, it’s been easy because Technology is one of those things that the Board of Investment really, look into.

So it could be med tech, it could be fin tech, it could be health tech, but technology is the glue to it, to, to everything at the moment. And everyone talks about AI and everyone talks about technology and innovation. So we’re very, lucky that we have that background and skillset within, with Damian.

So I guess going back to it, the, process for, from what I understood in the beginning was supposed to take six months to a year. It took us five months, I believe, from start to finish, with a lot of myself following up, and just being, [01:01:00] what’s going on? And, it was a lot of hard work in that regard.

We, we did have an external party, lawyers, and accountants, doing the process for us, going through the BOI. In fact, it might have been easier to do it, but, directly with the BOI. I’ve been told some people have done it directly and it’s been easy to, and I’ve done it both ways.

I’ve had, because we don’t speak Thai, we love the fact that when we’re having these discussions with, the BOI that there was someone that could translate things that we weren’t able to translate to the BOI. But if you were doing it yourself, I think it might be a little bit difficult to be able to explain what you’re doing and who you are.

Yeah, five months we went through the BOI process. It was difficult in that there is a lot of red tape, there is a lot of ticking of boxes. It takes an incredible amount of patience. If you’re a foreigner that [01:02:00] doesn’t have the patience, I don’t know if this is the best route, but if you want to own your business 100 percent here, foreign owned, get really good tax exemptions, I think it’s a good route to take.

As a start up, it’s good for us. It really helps us to get into the market, it really helps us to, they give you three years almost to get the business set up and built, so that was a really good option for us. And, I, I think, I, honestly, by the fact it was a little bit painful, because it was so many forms, it was so much, meet, so many meetings and so many documentations that we had to provide over and over again, it felt like Groundhog Day.

In the end, I think it’s been worth it, and, we’re really excited.

Scott: Yeah, congratulations. It’s no small feat. And I think similar to other things, it’s, it’s simple in a way, but it’s not necessarily [01:03:00] easy. And back to the point of, yeah, there’s a lot of boxes you have to tick. There’s a lot of things you have to continue to do. And what, really what the government’s looking for here is, are you bringing something into Thailand that’s valuable to Thailand?

And obviously as technologists and as company innovators here, you had that all going for you. So I assume that may application more likely to be approved because you’re bringing in essentially the intellectual, I don’t know if it’s intellectual property, essentially you’re bringing in that stuff here and you’re gonna help the, country as a whole.

And I assume you’re employing, Are planning to be employing more Thais, right? In which case you really are helping the country a lot. 

Joana: I think, sorry, I think for us, we really, and it goes back to our why we want to add value and help other people, whether it’s businesses or individuals. And what we really honed in for BOI is that we will, create teams of developers or create teams of business analysts. and they’re going to be [01:04:00] Thais.

We want to give back and we want to share our knowledge and we want to mentor, they’ll have us. The next generation Thais, and that is really exciting for us because we are going to be living here. and. And that, for us, is something that we’re really excited about is giving back to the Thai community.

Because, yeah, we’ve done a business here before with our travel techs, the other travel tech company. We expanded here and we had a huge development team of 60 developers. We had 30, 40 customer experience staff and it was incredibly successful. And we’re so excited to do it again here in Thailand and to just have a business here in Thailand, help, train and develop the Thai skill sets.

I, we’re really, excited. Sorry Damian, I about, what were you going to say?

Damian: just wanted to say that, yeah, there is a genuine alignment regarding what the Board of Investment is, keen to promote and what we are keen to [01:05:00] share and contribute. There’s a genuine enthusiasm about, taking my experiences, whether it be hardcore technology skills or the agile approach, methodologies to doing software development.

I’m incredibly passionate about building up Thai teams and sharing that knowledge. We are both passionate about, participating in mentor programs, and educate, providing, lectures or, talks to the next generation of, young people wanting to develop businesses or focus on technology.

I think if you don’t have a genuine connection to what the BOI is looking for, it’s going to be so much more difficult. And however, much patience it required from Joana, and I have nothing but appreciation for the, for her dedication to the process, because it [01:06:00] was very challenging. Because there was such an alignment there for what I believe the BOI is looking to promote and what we are really enthusiastic about starting.

I think it was always going to happen and for, those that, that sort of try to put a square peg into a round hole, they might find it super challenging to go through the process. But if you’ve got a, genuine alignment with what the BOI are looking for, I think it’s an, it’s a really positive thing to look at and very worthwhile pursuing.

Scott: Yeah, it’s a great initiative too. You were mentioning at the beginning, Damian, about how much, Thailand has changed over the years, over the last 14 plus years. And I think a lot of that comes from what amazing people in Thailand have done. There’s a great development community from my understanding,

Damian: There is.

Scott: There’s some great talent here and you bring some innovators like yourselves into Thailand too, that want to help the country even further, that’s what’s going to cause a lot of great [01:07:00] things. And yeah, the benefits of course, as you mentioned, there are some tax benefits, there’s ownership benefits.

There’s also one other nice benefit for things that foreigners like to complain about here, and it’s immigration. I’ve been under BOI as well for several years, and I have, when people complain about going to Changwantana, and everything else like that, I’m like, oh, I don’t know, I go to the one stop shop and go in, I’m in and out.

And so that’s a nice, another benefit to be aware of. So for people that as you mentioned, Aren’t the square peg round hole and actually have a chance. I think it sounds like a thing worth pursuing. is at least considering going down the B. O. I. Path. Now, having said that we were talking about Thailand talent and, obviously you hiring and growing teams here in Thailand.

I’m curious what you both look for. And, how you go about that hiring process of, attracting the right people and of course picking and selecting and then mentoring and growing those people. So do you have any recommendations or things that you can share about how you found success in that area?

 

Damian: There are multiple [01:08:00] situations where, say, Joana and I are out with the family. And I know, I’ll speak of a situation that I know that Joana will connect with. And we’re just at a restaurant. And the person taking our order, just took our order, and went around the table and then walked away. And Joana and I both looked at each other.

I swear to you, this is no joke. And we don’t do this all the time. But we go, you know what? I would hire that person. And she goes, I know, right? And it was, there’s sometimes it can be, that’s an initial spark. So you’re looking for something when it comes to just having that spark of, getting it.

Like the questions that she asked when she wasn’t sure, like I’m going to try to touch now try to connect some dots as to what we saw in that simple interaction when she wasn’t sure about something. And she verified with clarity. and the simple act of, asking a few questions and taking out order [01:09:00] and her turning around, walking away and me having absolute confidence that it was looked after. That there’s a lot when you’re looking for people, that’s what you’re looking for is that you can have that simple interaction and you know that if there isn’t, if it’s not clear that you feel comfortable that questions will be asked. That, that, will, that questions will be asked until it’s clearly understood.

and suggesting something that maybe is very logical and a great addition to what you weren’t originally thinking. I don’t know. So you can have that interaction, obviously you have that a lot in business, but you can have that interaction with in any particular part of your life and we commonly look at each other and say, wow, that’s, someone, you know what, let’s, give them our business card.

And I honestly, that’s more important to me than your educational background. It really is. Because [01:10:00] I think it’s really hard to train that spark or that, that, technical way. Yeah. It’s, something special, but,

Joana: It’s a mindset that we’re looking for. It’s a certain mindset because at heart we are problem solvers. We want to solve problems and we just want to tackle problems. The problem with infinite solutions is not, there’s not going to be one solution to every problem. There’s going to be multiple solutions to a problem.

And so we want to have thinkers, people who are inquisitive, people who are going to, challenge that status quo and not just be yes, people, they’re going to be. But there’s a, difference between challenging. the status quo and been a pain in the arse. And, some people like to be, Oh, I’m smarter.

I’m gonna be a pain in the arse and I’m gonna try and catch you out. We don’t like that. we want someone who’s going to be respectful and have a debate and argue and put their point across and go because I [01:11:00] feel that and with this data and information, this is the best course of action and presenting The facts and the data and, their gut feeling, all of these things combined, I think, just makes a really good what I call high performer.

And there’s a thing, Gina Wickman is a Traction book called, GWC, get it, want it and have the capabilities. You should be look, high performers have three things. they get it. Absolutely get the vision. They absolutely get what you want. and they’re not yes, people. They just get it. You don’t, they don’t have to be told they want him.

I have to drive an inner fire to want to do it and to be empowered. And when you empower them, they’re just going to go off. And then they have to have the capabilities, to the skill sets, the smarts to execute. Now, some people have all three high performance. Damian has all three, right? But then there’s others who.

They get it, they want it, but they don’t have the [01:12:00] capabilities. And for example, in Thailand, some Thais don’t (yet) have capabilities. They didn’t have the experience or the background that we have, but we’re not looking for capability as long as they get it and they want it and they want to learn and they’re open to learning and they have a growth mindset and they have the right attitude. We will, we’ll bring him on board and we want to mentor them and we want to train them and we want to develop them because that, that, that is, that’s the kind of people that we want in our business.

Scott: Wow. Yeah. And you’ve mentioned the terms we spark fire. I also can almost, you can almost see it in someone’s eyes. It’s like when they, as you said, they get it. And to, to everyone’s point, it’s we just had a seminar recently, Joana, that, you were leading. and it was about education. And so some things can be taught.

And some things cannot be taught. So it sounds like you’re looking for essentially that spark, that fire, that willingness, that wanting to learn, that wanting to grow. And then the education part of Hey, we’re going to help you get [01:13:00] better at that area. That’s something that sounds like you both are willing to provide and like to 

Damian: Absolutely. 

Scott: so that’s really

Joana: There was a question actually last night was what makes a highly educated person? And I really wanted to answer that but I couldn’t answer it at the time. And so others were answering it. But when my brain reflected back on last night to that, if I could answer that question, what makes a highly educated person isn’t the certificate, isn’t the degree.

The degree is great and it’s important. And I will tell my kids to go to university. Damian and I have this, he thinks it’s not important. I want to get my MBA because I don’t have a degree or certificate, right? But, what makes a highly educated person is someone who uses life as an education.

And it could be, and all of the different learning models out there, right? And it could be through university, it could be through a mentor, it could be through an elder, it could be through traveling and experiences, but life as [01:14:00] an education is taking the theory and using it practically, there’s no point in having all of this education and theory and knowledge if you don’t use it.

If you don’t apply it. So I think what makes a highly educated person is someone who takes all of this information, all of this theory, whether it’s through university or, practical experience from work, but takes all of this, learnings. and then applies it, and listens to a whole lot of information and applies it, in their work life, in their personal life and in whatever they’re doing that to me makes a highly educated person.

And, Damian, we always have this with this thing about all these degrees important. I think it’s important to a certain degree, pun intended. But it’s not everything, and it’s not the be all and end all. And, I think, [01:15:00] yeah, if I could go back and get a degree, I would, right? Only because I do want that piece of paper.

But everything that I’ve learnt has been the practical. I did my MBA through having a start up, through being an entrepreneur, through failing. on a lot of things, and learning. and certainly surrounding yourself with smart people. I surround myself and married someone infinitely smarter than myself because I want to learn every day and I learn from him every single day.

And I learn from my kids through the questions that they ask and how inquisitive they are. so you have to surround yourself with smarter people, because that is how you learn it. That is how you grow it. That is how you get better as a leader, as a business owner. and certainly as a person and an individual.

Scott: Absolutely. It reminds me a little bit, Joana, what you said is that when there’s someone that [01:16:00] wants to learn so much, they can find a way to learn those things. So something in Thailand people sometimes complain about is English level, right? And I’ve talked to some people that have gone to the best schools, had the best tutors, and then also some people that have not had any of that, and have learned through movies, and then research, and then, they, go down the line of just absorb.

Not only that, maybe they’re watching a movie, and they hear some, phrase being used that they don’t understand, and then they’re searching for that, and they’re trying to understand it. So they’re getting into the details of how does this work. And sometimes those people know more English than I do, because they’ve taken the time to, as you put it, Damian, in the past, take apart the clock.

And as a native English speaker, we’re sometimes repeating the things that we’ve heard, and we can speak fluently for that reason. But sometimes a English second, second language, individual might be dissecting it. More even than, we would, and they can do some impressive things, and, sometimes that just comes from their willingness or, eagerness to learn.

Now, having said that, if we think about someone who is in university today, [01:17:00] a lot has changed, technology has changed, a lot, ton is going on today. But let’s assume that you are in university right now, Damian, what would you do if you were back in university today? Is there anything you’d change, any recommendations you’d have for yourself?

Damian: I did university a long time ago, but it’s, quite funny when I reflect back on. On what I did and what I would do now. When I went to university, because I was interested in computer programming since the age of about 12. I was always going to do an IT degree. In fact, I even did a little bit of university in high school because I was just, I lived and breathed programming.

And I was given the opportunity to just jump ahead a little bit and do some programming and that was fun. But when it came to university, I was always going to do information technology. And I had the choice between four different majors. And I was passionate, I was enthusiastic, and I was going to put in the extra work.

I wanted to do as much as I [01:18:00] could, but doing all four was impossible. But I was able, with extra subjects, to do three of the four majors. I did Computer Science, Software Engineering, and Information Systems. They all seemed relevant, interesting, and I absorbed all of them, and I couldn’t pick one over the other.

But the fourth one It was a major that I considered at the time to be a bit of a waste of time. It was hugely theoretical. I considered it to be a bunch of professors that were just theorizing about application of stuff that you could in a sci fi movie do. some interesting stuff with computers.

And that fourth major was artificial intelligence. So, that’s, 20 years ago, I completely disregarded artificial intelligence as being this thing that was not practical. It was purely theoretical and a little bit of a waste of my time because I only wanted to deal with the practical. obviously [01:19:00] what would I do differently now?

I’m excited about the world of, and, the innovation and evolution of where we’re at with the practical applications of AI and artificial intelligence. while some people might be, find it daunting as to just how far it’s going with regards to what it’s able to do that humans used to do, I would do, I would, I am, regardless of university, and this is why we have the debate, I’m investing a ridiculous amount of time understanding AI.

I don’t need a degree in order to do that. But if you were going to do a degree, First of all, evaluate, and one of the biggest concerns I have is educational institutions can lag behind a little bit. So just be cautious, and if you find yourself in a situation like I did, when I did my programming degree, it was still 10 years old when it came to what they were teaching us.

For some reason they, education institutions, they seem to lag, but be mindful. If it’s lagging, [01:20:00] please do work outside of your degree. Please look at the real world and the exciting things that are happening. and if I was doing a degree, I would definitely pick up the artificial intelligence, but I’d be highly skeptical that it’s not up to date.

And if it’s not up to date, don’t let that hold you back. supplement whatever you’re being taught at university with practical applications. Practical applications is always so much more important. And if I had to choose one over the other, I would choose just the practical applications, over if I had the alternative of just having a piece of paper.

A piece of paper really isn’t the thing that’s worthy of getting your, opportunities. The reason that you get those opportunities is how you’ve applied what you’ve learnt. So don’t hesitate to do that while you’re learning. And that’s, my advice to people. But I probably wouldn’t skip on the, artificial intelligence major if I had my time over again.

I think it’s quite [01:21:00] funny that 20 years ago I considered it to be completely non practical and irrelevant to the future. And, today it’s probably the most relevant thing you could do.

Scott: Wow. Yeah. And that is a funny story. And the good news is, since you didn’t let it stop you, you still know that you can learn about artificial intelligence, despite not being in the degree program right now. one thing that I think you’ve shared with me before, Damian, is that, It’s great when people can get the education.

It’s also important to not flaunt the education too much because I sometimes see people say, Oh, I’ve come out of Thammasat, I’d have done this. I’ve done that. And there’s they presented as tada, like I’ve got this thing, therefore you should want me. And sometimes I would say it can be a disadvantage because people, it can mean you’ve gone through some great things.

It can mean you’ve been educated. This is all fantastic stuff, but it’s not, necessarily sufficient. And that curiosity and that extra learning is more sufficient. So I asked people oftentimes about the books that they’ve read, the things that they follow, and I don’t want them to say, Oh, I went to university and I, travel all the time.

It’s [01:22:00] I, I’m hoping that they actually have something more that they’re trying to absorb on their own versus taking the paper and saying, check, I got it. They’re like, I’m done with my learning.

Damian: isn’t that the biggest risk in the sense that, That is the, biggest risk of it being a disadvantage is if you think and assume and use as a crutch that degree. If you leave your degree thinking I’ve done it, now life will be easy, that’s a disadvantage. You are certainly at a disadvantage at that particular point.

doesn’t have to be a disadvantage getting a degree, but if you think that it is the answer. And I can speak from very specific experience. I’m talking 20 years ago and it’s only getting worse. With regards to the fact that degree in, and by itself is not very useful. It’s not going to be your ticket.

It’s not going to be your key. It’s going [01:23:00] to require more. And it’s certainly, you’re going to be. at a massive disadvantage if you thought that you didn’t need to do more when the people around you have been looking at the practical side of things and then presenting right next to you in an interview.

More often than not, you’re going to be disappointed and at some point you’ll realize, geez, in addition to that piece of paper, I probably should get some certifications, read some books, do some practical demonstrations of what I’ve learned. And then. Doors will open for you.

Scott: Absolutely. Now, you both have been incredibly generous with your time, so I’m going to start to wind this down a little bit, but there is a question I have for you both, which is, there anything that we didn’t cover today, whether it be about business, leadership, Thailand, that you wish I would have asked you about?

Damian: I’ve got one. Yeah, it’s just a topic that I’m talking about with my, teams at the moment. [01:24:00] and it revolves around, sometimes, I talk so much about having objective, verifiable, data driven, ways of measuring success. I, it, to, if, to externalize your measurement of success and make it not subjective, everyone can look at the same thing and work towards the same goal.

And there’s something cold about that. So, it’s great. And I really encourage this externalization, remove the subjectivity of success and make it so that everybody can measure it and see it and work towards it. That’s fantastic. But what I would like to share with people and emphasize on it as much as physically possible is remember the joy in what you do.

And if you can’t remember, if you can’t look back and say, you know what, when we were achieving this type of, productivity, Reaching these goals, having these types of success, having these human interactions, there was joy, if you can’t remember that, [01:25:00] you might be in the wrong career. You might be, and at least try to reflect on and remember a time that you were really joyful in, in, in your career, in, in your job, when you went to work and, you’re surrounded by people and, there was joy.

If you can’t remember that, bring it back. Think, reflect on it and remember that is. It’s just as important as having these cold hard facts of what is success. This data driven approach, I really push it, but, I don’t want to push it in, preference of human beings coming together in a joyful way where they have a common purpose and goal.

That we talked about spark before, that’s when the magic happens.

Joana: It’s the journey. You’re talking about the journey. It’s don’t forget about the path and the journey that you’re on. Be present. Understand that the problems that you’re solving, no matter [01:26:00] how stressful it can be, work at solving the problem, not arguing with one another. Or, and find joy in interacting. collaborating, communicating with one another and success. Like you said, it’s different for everybody. Success isn’t just monetary successes. It’s a feeling of accomplishment, right? And that could be because you’ve mentored someone today or you help someone on the street or you give him back to the community or you’ve learned to play the guitar, which you thought you were, You couldn’t, right?

I think there’s just so many different levels when it comes to success and it goes back to success is what you believe in here to be success, not what everybody else around you is telling you successful. And a lot of businesses, and they have all of these levels and definitions of success and it’s we’ve got to, we’ve [01:27:00] got to scale this much and we’ve got to have this amount of staff. No, it’s about what do you define as successful, is it that your staff are happy that nobody’s leaving? Is it because your customers are happy and they’re not in your retaining, 80, 90 percent of them and, was it money or is it the fact that you get to spend time with the kids and have freedom because you have your own business for us?

That’s from I’ll speak for myself. being, A professional or career or an intrapreneur and working so hard and then being an entrepreneur and seeing both sides of the coin, I think, for me, my success now is working towards that. Family and kids and making sure that they’re good, individuals and good people.

and that is a huge responsibility. yes, we love business. Yes, we love giving back to the community. Our level of success is as a family. How much time do we get to spend? How much time does Damian get to do golf? [01:28:00] Because that makes him happy. and making sure that each individual in the family are shining and doing what they’re wanting to do.

And you’re supporting that system. And I think that for me is my level of success. Success today is the happiness of my husband, of my kids. and, are they happy, 

Scott: Wow. So there’s been quite a journey that you all have had from coming from Australia to Thailand, starting a business, bringing your children, And having them adjust, finding the right school. Finding the right place. And to the point of Joana’s found a lot of right places when it comes to all the communities and mentorship and things that she’s doing as well.

So it sounds like you both have really found some amazing success in Thailand. And so I want to thank you both so much for, joining me today. And with that, I’d love if I can hear a little bit more about people that might want to be in, get in touch. What is the best way, Joana, for, someone to either reach out to you or be more [01:29:00] involved in Thailand and some of the things that you’re doing.

Joana: look, we were just about to launch our Scalifi platform, our all in one platform solution, so look out for that. But for now, I think the best way to contact Damian and myself would be through LinkedIn. I love a good LinkedIn. I’m also, as most people, maybe not most people know, but I’m the Vice President of the Australian Thai Chamber of Commerce.

So please feel free to come and reach out to me through the chamber. and I also am the chair of NextGen, which is for the young professionals and young entrepreneurs community here in Thailand. but yeah, the best way is really through LinkedIn. It’s got all my details there. say hi to me. If you see me at a networking event, don’t be shy.

I look a little bit scary and intimidating, but I’m, just as nervous as you are networking. So please come and say hello. and yeah, just yeah, LinkedIn, see me at a networking event, say hi. yeah. And, I’m [01:30:00] sure you might have some of our details as well, Scott. So through you,

Scott: Fantastic. Thank you both again. I really appreciate it. I think there was a ton to be learned. Maybe in the future, in a year or two, we’ll get to check, touch base with you both again and see how things have gone.

Thank you so much Scott for the wonderful podcast. So I really appreciate it.

Well, there you have it. I hope you found the conversation with Joana and Damian as insightful and inspiring as I did. One of the standout lessons Joana shared was the significance of moving beyond the hustle culture to sustainable growth. She also emphasized the importance of visibility and transparency in your business operations to make informed decisions without burning out your team.

Damian’s insights into technology and the power of keeping things simple were equally enlightening. He also reminded us that finding joy in the journey is essential. Make sure that your team isn’t just working towards goals, but also find satisfaction along the way. 

Joana and Damian both highlighted how critical it is to surround yourself with [01:31:00] people who are curious, eager to learn, and who challenge the status quo in a respectful manner. If you want to get in touch with Joanna or Damian, I included a link to Joanna’s LinkedIn in the video description and show notes.

Thanks so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed the episode, please leave a review, share it with your friends, and subscribe to Made It In Thailand for more inspiring stories from those thriving in the Kingdom.

I hope you learned something, and I’ll catch you on the next one.