Growing a Marketing Agency in Thailand w/ Jan Rohweder

[00:00:00] Jan: I think that was a complete misconception and that’s something that I only realized quite quite a few years later on.

[00:00:08] Looking back, that was the moment where we broke through this wall, [00:00:15] like from this small agency to the next level. 

[00:00:18] Scott: Hi there and welcome to made it in Thailand, the podcast where we learn how to thrive in Thailand from top performers who have found success in the Kingdom. I’m your host, Scott Pressimone. Today I am speaking with Jan Rohweder. [00:00:30] Jan is the founder of Marketing Bear, a digital marketing agency based in Bangkok.

[00:00:34] He’s also one of the directors of the Australian Thai Chamber of Commerce, and he’s incredibly active in the community. One of the reasons I invited Jan onto the podcast is that he is an open book. [00:00:45] He really seems to love helping others, whether that’s helping businesses grow or it’s volunteering his time to mentor the next generation.

[00:00:51] There’s so much we can learn from Jan. Without further ado, let’s jump into the interview.

[00:00:56] Jan, thank you so much for joining me today on this [00:01:00] episode of Made it in Thailand.

[00:01:02] Jan: Sure. I’m very happy to be here, Scott.

[00:01:05] Scott: Absolutely. So can you start off by giving a brief introduction who you are, what you’re doing in Thailand?

[00:01:12] Jan: My name is Jan Rohweder. [00:01:15] I’m in Thailand now for over 13 years and I’m running a digital marketing agency called Marketing Bear, and I’m also one of the directors of AustCham Thailand.

[00:01:26] Scott: Now what originally brought you to Thailand?[00:01:30] 

[00:01:31] Jan: So that’s a quite long story. Essentially, I never had the plan to come to Thailand. When I was young, I always wanted to go to the United States. I have been there a couple of times on holidays with my family. [00:01:45] And that was always my dream, I would say, to work in the United States. And then, when I studied in Germany, my best friend he studied with me the same program.

[00:01:58] And he [00:02:00] actually is half Thai, but back then, like he had never been in Thailand. He is born and raised in Germany. And he suggested suddenly in the fifth semester, he suggested, Jan, I prepared everything. Like we, I have a [00:02:15] university, I have a hotel. You just need to say yes and we can both go together to Thailand for six months, do an exchange semester.

[00:02:23] And, I thought, especially also back then, and maybe even today, I’m still quite lazy in some [00:02:30] ways. I try to always reduce my workload. I thought this is a great opportunity. I don’t need to do anything, and we can go have a great time, six months in Thailand. I’ve never thought of Thailand. I’m very excited about, yeah, getting to know that country.[00:02:45] 

[00:02:45] I said, yes we travel to Thailand. And then I realized like my friend actually he has a little bit exaggerated what he has planned. So there were a couple of hiccups with the university like they at [00:03:00] first they didn’t even know who we are Like who are these two German guys like just standing there in admissions they had no idea like so we had to sort that out and even like the very first night It was horrible.

[00:03:10] Like I really I trusted him. I thought yeah, he would know like he knows the areas probably [00:03:15] he has family like relatives over here. Should be fine, but really the hotel where we stayed that was like a haunted hotel like in the night there were people banging at the door and I thought man, where am I here?

[00:03:29] [00:03:30] Like i’ve never been in Asia before. That was my first night and it was really shocking to be honest, but then after a couple of days we set it in we changed where we stayed and it got better and then the interesting bit is [00:03:45] that after about six weeks, my friend and again, he’s half Thai, he said Jan. I’m sorry. I cannot do it. I have enough I cannot stand this. This is just too crazy here. I cannot stand it. I need to go back to Germany. And [00:04:00] then I was basically at a point where I had to decide do I want to stay here in Thailand?. Do I want to continue the six months that we had planned or do I join him going back?

[00:04:08] And I decided now I’m, I am already here and let’s just see like [00:04:15] how the time will be here. So I will, stay. And really that was the starting point where I would say I really got to know Thailand because up until that point, me and my friend, we were always doing things together and it’s very hard then [00:04:30] to get in touch with like local people just like you try to always help each other in German, even my English wasn’t that great at that time.

[00:04:38] So I was really not pushed to really get to know anyone else. But then when I was alone, then I [00:04:45] had to start really getting to know like also the locals. And I start to realize this country is amazing. There’s so many ways it’s crazy. Yes. But at the other side, it’s so friendly. The people are amazing.

[00:04:59] The food is [00:05:00] great. And in a lot of ways things are easier here because it’s less structured, but that also means less planning is involved to get sometimes things done and I really enjoyed that. So that was basically my first six months. I really [00:05:15] enjoyed it and then going forward, I also had actually in my program also an internship abroad. I had to do this in a country outside of Germany and I thought now I am here in Thailand.

[00:05:26] I can directly apply here also for [00:05:30] internships. And I did that and I got an internship at a marketing and PR agency. I did that for another six months. And then that agency asked me, Jan, what do you think of just staying here? We would really need you. [00:05:45] And, that’s how it then continued. Like I said, okay that’s a great opportunity.

[00:05:50] So I will stay here. I just flew back, did my finals finished my, bachelor degree. And then I flew back and for about two and a half, three years, I [00:06:00] worked with that agency. And then I decided to start my own business. And that was also with the help of my former bosses from that agency where I worked because [00:06:15] they eventually, they said, Jan, like you are now like at a point here in the agency we cannot give you anything more.

[00:06:21] This is really the top level, but. But there is potential so they offered me and we can help you start setting up a business. We can mentor you. We can [00:06:30] show you like a little bit how business is being done here in Thailand. And for the first three four years they supported me. They gave me advice and with that I was able to find the right lawyer like how to set up a business. Also finding people. Even like [00:06:45] simple things, where to find people.

[00:06:46] If you are completely new in this country, you don’t really know what platforms work, what don’t, which platforms don’t work to look for people that, that really helped. And yeah, long story short, like now [00:07:00] that was end of 2013, where I founded the business. Today, here we are. And yeah, I’m still here in Thailand and I really enjoy this time.

[00:07:10] Scott: That’s an amazing story. And the fact that your friend being half Thai was the one that kind [00:07:15] of gave up on it. And then that forced you to get out of your comfort zone. It’s interesting because I’ve seen a lot of people be in their comfort zone, as you’d mentioned, like whether it’s a gap year they’re traveling with a girlfriend, they’re traveling with a friend and it’s the same thing, [00:07:30] right?

[00:07:30] You get caught in your native language and or you go to events and you’re talking with your friend and you’re both like, “Oh, should we approach that person?” and you’re not forced to do it so you’re going to go back to your comfort zone. I’m curious though, when you, when your [00:07:45] friend decided to go back, were you 50/50 that you were going to stay?

[00:07:49] Or were you pretty solid that you were going to stay? Cause it seems like everything was all based on that trajectory and that, that fork in the road. And so I’m curious how close you were [00:08:00] to going back to Germany as opposed to staying.

[00:08:05] Jan: There were lots of factors like I would probably 50/50. One of the factors, for instance, was when I started to realize [00:08:15] which university where we studied, like what type of reputation that university has here locally. I also was a bit disappointed. It was not one of the better ones and then also my family members like [00:08:30] their family member like alone in asia. Like I’m here alone in asia and they also have never been in asia before. They all said, Jan come back like really it’s fine.

[00:08:39] Like just come back. So there were a couple of factors that said, Jan, this is really not [00:08:45] the right place, go back, but then at the same time, I had these, these moments, these short moments during the first six weeks already, like where I felt like, hey, some things are really amazing here. And, personally, [00:09:00] that was also a better decision.

[00:09:03] So if I had gone back, it would be right into the winter in Germany. I felt I know it’s, much better here. But then there were also a couple of [00:09:15] small interactions that I already had with like students also at the university that were local and I just felt like I would love to learn more about that.

[00:09:22] I would love to learn more how this culture actually works. How does this country work? So in the end yeah, I [00:09:30] just thought, okay, I’m here. Let’s just try it. So about 50/50, it was really very close that I almost flew back to Germany.

[00:09:38] Scott: Now, what about that friend of yours? Do you still stay in touch with him? Are you still close?

[00:09:42] Jan: Yes, so he actually [00:09:45] had two more attempts to come to Thailand. He even worked here like a couple of years later like, for a few months. But in the end, he, yeah, he just didn’t feel comfortable. But then what I find interesting, and [00:10:00] I cannot really relate because I don’t have the experience.

[00:10:03] He’s now in the Philippines and he’s happy there. Like for three years, he’s now working over there and he says he’s happy. I cannot really relate. I don’t know what the main differences are. [00:10:15] I’m sure there are a lot but there seems, it seems to be better aligned with how he likes to live.

[00:10:20] So I wouldn’t say it’s Asia in general that he doesn’t like. It seems like he got, he does like Asia, but just Thailand that he [00:10:30] couldn’t get together with. Not yet. Maybe there will be another attempt in the future.

[00:10:35] Scott: Oh, that’s great. Now with starting your business, I think again, that’s another really interesting part of the story is that it sounds like you hit a [00:10:45] glass ceiling and rather than that company, that PR firm sort of holding onto you and saying be happy get used to this. It sounds like they saw more in you and then actually helped you make those next steps.

[00:10:56] And again, just for the listeners. I think anyone who [00:11:00] starts a career here, you can be imported to Thailand as an expat. You get this nice package and all this other stuff that can happen with some of these larger firms. But oftentimes if you’re not going that path and you’re instead just trying to be employed, there are certain like foreigner roles that [00:11:15] exist in companies.

[00:11:16] And it’s of course the common one would be a teacher role, but there’s a ton of them where it’s just, oh, salesperson, and we need a foreigner for that. And sometimes they don’t have growth trajectories there. Like sometimes you just are what you are and [00:11:30] there’s plenty of people that want the job.

[00:11:31] So be happy with your sales role. Be happy with your compensation. You’re living in a great country and that’s fine. I think again, plenty of people can live a good life that way, but it sounds, it’s really inspiring that you were [00:11:45] able to then work with founders that, that knew you could do more and that actually helped you do more so that you didn’t have that glass ceiling and you could actually create something of your own. Would you say that you were pretty fortunate in the, in that situation there?[00:12:00] 

[00:12:01] Jan: I would have, I would say I’ve been pretty fortunate in a lot of situations, like really if I look back, there have been a lot of moments where I say, like, how do I deserve this? I’m very lucky to be in this, these positions, [00:12:15] but yeah, to answer your question also back then, like to have met these type of people that are exactly like you said, very supportive that think about, okay.

[00:12:25] How else can we help Jan to have a good life to achieve [00:12:30] his goals and that they again, like it’s, always a little bit about pushing me in the right direction because I think if I didn’t have this type of connection, if I didn’t meet these, people, I would have maybe never dared [00:12:45] to start my own business like I am so I’m very grateful for that. And I think it was really a once in a lifetime opportunity. Like it was really the right moment. [00:13:00] At the same time, and I need to say this at this point I back then I was still very young. Although I had the mentors, I was looking back today, I would have done a lot of things differently.

[00:13:14] But [00:13:15] still yeah without them, I wouldn’t have started Marketing Bear, so yeah, I’m very grateful for that.

[00:13:21] Scott: Yeah. And we’ll get back to some of those lessons you might’ve learned or the things you would have done differently. But I want to talk more about Marketing Bear and what Marketing Bear is. I [00:13:30] understand that it’s a marketing agency, but I think there is something to be said about the fact that you started this company when you were young and now it’s still survived over all these years.

[00:13:40] And that’s not an easy feat. There are a lot of companies that come and go in Thailand, a lot of marketing agencies that come and [00:13:45] go there. And in fact, most networking events I go to, it’s I’m brand new from the UK, I’m brand new from the U.S. I’m going to start an agency here. And sadly, a lot of them don’t survive.

[00:13:55] So it’s really saying something that you have done so well over the years. [00:14:00] And so I’d love to learn more about makes Marketing Bear different than some of the other agencies that exist or have tried to become successful here in Thailand.

[00:14:10] Jan: So I have to say back at the [00:14:15] university, like one of the majors was also IT and I’m, I can code. So originally when we started Marketing Bear and after, I think we would talk about this a little bit more later on, we had a side project in the first year, but after that, like we [00:14:30] started with website and app development, and then over the years we slowly added more and more services.

[00:14:37] Originally, like when we developed websites, then the customers asked us, okay, so now we have an amazing website. How do we get [00:14:45] users onto this website? And then we thought, okay there is a need. Let’s also add that to our service offering. So we started to add that. I would say by 2018, roughly, like we were at a point where we were okay, now we are really this [00:15:00] forward digital marketing agency that we have all the areas covered that you would think need to be covered in digital marketing.

[00:15:06] And then from then onwards, we started to think, okay, what can differentiate us from [00:15:15] other agencies in the market? And one thing that worked for us really is that we said, okay when we started websites already, everything was data driven. So why don’t we take that a step further and say with [00:15:30] every client we work with, we start with the full marketing audit and then build a strategy based on that.

[00:15:36] This way we have solid data for all our decisions. There’s 100 percent transparency and clarity to between us and [00:15:45] the clients, like what we try to achieve and how we want to achieve this. And then we can decide what exactly we’re going to do for each client. So for some clients that maybe is necessary to do search engine [00:16:00] optimization, SEO, then for other clients, maybe not necessary at all.

[00:16:04] Maybe just focusing on social media, but that can only be said after we have analyzed the market, after we have analyzed their capabilities within the team and in the past and [00:16:15] up until today, this has worked really well for us. So even if someone. It’s just interested in social media management, we would still do the full audit and we would still give this chance for course correction. So if we after the audit and strategy realized that it’s not the [00:16:30] right services will not help the client to achieve the goals that they have set out to achieve, then can adjust the course and offer a service that really helps them to achieve those goals.

[00:16:42] Scott: So I, I’ve seen some [00:16:45] companies that are selling some services and they really just say, look, we’re selling the service. We’re going to make everything fit into that service, right? Because they have a team that does that one thing. In which case, anyone that’s going to come in the door, they’re going to say, get that one thing.

[00:16:57] But since it sounds like you have that, you built up a [00:17:00] wide range of services and you’re data driven, then you’re actually getting them the right service. Now I’m curious what happens though, when a client comes in and they similar to coming into a doctor, they come in and they say, yeah, I want you to give me this medication, [00:17:15] right?

[00:17:15] Or I want you to give me this thing to fix my problem. sometimes that patient is not right. So I’m curious how you deal with those situations when someone comes in the door and says, I want this, but really they need that.

[00:17:29] Jan: [00:17:30] That’s a very good question. I don’t have a definite answer to this because sometimes we are able to show the data that proves that this is really not the right thing. And going back to your example [00:17:45] if a patient would come into a doctor and then ask for medicine, but then, on the medicine packaging, it says it’s not for you in some ways either because of the age or because of other things then I think the patient maybe [00:18:00] listens.

[00:18:00] Maybe. It doesn’t mean they will listen, but maybe listens. So we will try our best to explain our reasoning. And we always try to have again, data to prove that. Now, if that doesn’t work, then at that point we would say we might not [00:18:15] be the right fit because in the end it goes back on us because we, if we are not convinced that we can achieve the goals for the clients that they want to achieve, then after a couple of weeks or months, we know already, it will not be a good client and agency [00:18:30] relationship. Like they, they need to see results. And if we cannot deliver these results, yeah, it’s not a long term relationship and that’s not what we are after. And then we need to decide, does it make sense to continue?

[00:18:41] Scott: Got it. So again, it seems to all go back to the data is [00:18:45] that the fact that you’re saying we begin by gathering data, then you’re going to have something, you’re going to have an educated decision making process of what actually is the best fit. And you’re going to have the rationale to back it up to the [00:19:00] client.

[00:19:00] And yeah, they don’t always have to listen but at least you have good rationale built up. Now, what about, do you have any clients that ever say, Jan, I get it. You’re doing any of this audit. I don’t have time for that. [00:19:15] How do you deal with that sort of situation? Actually, the first question is long does the audit take?

[00:19:21] And number two, how do you deal with people that say, I don’t need that. I already know what I need.

[00:19:27] Jan: Okay, to [00:19:30] start with the easier question, how long does the order take? The order takes usually on average a month. And the strategy and the strategy another week or two that follows after. Because usually like [00:19:45] within three weeks, we have some results that we can share with clients and then be first aligned with them.

[00:19:50] Do we really have analyzed all the competitors? Do we really know all the social media profiles? And when they confirm it, Then we build the strategy based on that. And [00:20:00] like you said, there are, actually this is a very good example, there are lots of clients that say, we don’t have the time. Jan, we contacted you because we need help now.

[00:20:09] The ship is on fire, help us. And and the way how we deal with [00:20:15] it is that we have some interim services that we say, okay, these are not, this will not be the best services, they will not be data driven, they will not maybe be the best ways to achieve the goals. But during the time where we do the research and the strategy we can [00:20:30] support you with that. So for some clients this may be setting up ads like google ads or meta ads with facebook and instagram and we do that with the best knowledge that we have about their business and also with our [00:20:45] experience, but we are very clear to all clients that this is not based on the data and not the way how we want it to work.

[00:20:52] It’s really just a temporary solution just to get some traffic in and then we will switch over once the [00:21:00] strategy is done.

[00:21:02] Scott: Something that stands out to me is when you said that process of the audit takes a few weeks. I’ve seen some agencies that say, Oh, we do an audit and they might spend a week or two on some PowerPoint [00:21:15] presentation, but really they’re not spending much time on the audit, right? They’re going to some tools like Moz or Ahrefs or some other tools and saying, okay, here’s some data.

[00:21:23] We’re going to make an educated guess. Let’s go. It sounds like you’re going much deeper than that, which. [00:21:30] I’m fully a believer in because it’s if the data isn’t good and the foundation is good, isn’t good, how can you possibly have a good campaign that’ll last three years? Now you’re adapting over time, but if it’s just surface level, then it almost seems like a sales tool, [00:21:45] right?

[00:21:46] and any company that’s saying, Oh, we’ll give you a free audit. And they take 30 minutes to get you some screenshots. That’s not actually an audit, but what you’re describing sounds like a proper audit. 

[00:21:57] Jan: Yes. Yes. [00:22:00] Yeah. 

[00:22:01] Scott: it comes down to the point, I assume you want to have a longstanding client, not not someone you can get in the door, sell a quick serve to.

[00:22:08] Jan: And we also, we have a lot of time, the situation where we then after we are done with the audit and the strategy that we [00:22:15] then split responsibilities because some of our clients, they have in house marketing teams, but just need help in certain areas. And then with the strategy, we also help them to know what they should focus on.

[00:22:27] And then for these areas, we are more of a [00:22:30] consultant so they can always like reach out to us if they have questions, but we are not the ones actually executing that’s them doing it. But then other areas where they have less experience or don’t have the workforce we can support them.

[00:22:44] And [00:22:45] just going back, like really like our strategy is, and also the audit, they’re really in. And it’s usually like over 150 pages like that, that we deliver. And it’s also covering also some offline marketing. So we [00:23:00] really try to get as much information in there as possible to connect everything and then build a strategy based on that.

[00:23:07] So yeah, we really, I also have to say, we also use tools like to get data, like also Moz or [00:23:15] SEM Rush. But there’s more to it. There’s also the aspect that you need to do really the research that like a human needs to be the research on this on businesses and to find out really like what they are thinking, not just for the business we work with, but also the competitors.[00:23:30] 

[00:23:30] yeah, that takes time.

[00:23:32] Scott: Yeah, it absolutely takes time. No that’s great. And I love the fact that you said you can also offer consulting because you do sometimes have companies that have a marketing team of one or a small internal team. and they’re not going to [00:23:45] know everything. I think there’s sometimes a tendency as an owner to think, Oh, I just need a person to do this and just run some ads for me or whatever.

[00:23:51] And yeah, you can get like a generalist internal in a company, but they’re not going to be the best ads manager out there. So it sounds [00:24:00] the way that you’re structured, you’re not saying you’re all in on us. You have to outsource everything to us. It sounds like you’ll work in the sort of co, co managed sort of situation where in some cases it sounds like it’s consulting, in other cases it might be supplementing their team in certain areas they’re not strong in, [00:24:15] but it’s not a one size fits all, it sounds 

[00:24:17] Jan: Yes, correct. Exactly like that.

[00:24:20] Scott: Now, what about your team size? You’ve been around for quite a few years now. Roughly how many employees do you have today?

[00:24:28] Jan: So at the moment, it’s always going a [00:24:30] little bit up a little bit down, but on average, we have 30 at the moment. And. yeah it’s been really a slow start for us for a very long time. We’ve been not 30, we’ve been around six to eight team members and really it was just a couple of years ago [00:24:45] where we started to grow a little bit more.

[00:24:47] Scott: This goes down to what you had said previously, if you were to do stuff differently at the beginning, you would have made different decisions. So I’m curious, since it sounds like more recently you’ve had a big uptick in popularity [00:25:00] growth of the team and whatnot if you were to go back, what would you change and what would you have done differently to to have some of that growth earlier in the process?

[00:25:10] Jan: Okay, so also the market back then was a little bit different, I would [00:25:15] say, here in Thailand. Nowadays, I think it’s even more competitive than it was back then. First of all, the one thing I would recommend every business owner in Bangkok is [00:25:30] to be active in the local business community. And I’m not even saying exactly it needs to be a chamber of commerce.

[00:25:37] It can also be just the networking events. Originally I completely neglected that. Like my idea was, yes, [00:25:45] I love to live here, but. The clients with the budget, they are not here. They are in Europe. They are in the United States. So originally, like we focused not so much on Thailand as our market for getting new [00:26:00] clients, but really we focused on Europe and United States.

[00:26:02] And then, I think that was a complete misconception because there is a heavy need also for high quality services here in Thailand. And that’s something that I [00:26:15] only realized quite, quite a few years later on. So that’s my first advice. Although you maybe run a business that is focusing on foreign customers, also do not forget about the local market.

[00:26:28] There could be some great opportunities. [00:26:30] The second part that I would recommend is to be firm with who you are as a business and what do you offer? You mentioned before, like what is, if there’s a client that wants something [00:26:45] else that we really do not think is right. Back then I would have convinced myself, okay, let’s just try and let’s just see how it would go.

[00:26:56] And partly it was also because when you’re a small business, you really, you [00:27:00] try to get every project you can write this all about cash flow. You try to pay the bills. But, in some ways today, I think it may have been better directly from the start to have this very clear direction because there was a [00:27:15] time, especially also after we had added more services.

[00:27:18] Where clients started to see us as almost an freelance alternative, like where, where they could just book us on demand for anything where they just need [00:27:30] help right now. And that’s a very one sided kind of relationship. I want this, give me that now. So that’s the the relationship.

[00:27:38] And I think this way we undersell ourselves because with our experience, given [00:27:45] that we work in so many different projects with so many different clients, It helps actually also the clients if we can input our experience into the service offerings. If it’s not them that they need to tell us, okay, we want this, but it’s also us [00:28:00] telling them, “Hey, it might be, maybe it would be better if you do it this way or that way.”

[00:28:05] And I think I was just not self confident enough in the first few years to do that. And I think that [00:28:15] slowed us down a little bit because we have been in projects where they were just very time consuming and in the end We knew this is not really maybe gonna work out so It wasn’t it was not a great way to deal with clients.

[00:28:28] So yeah, we improved there [00:28:30] we are now much more confident. So that’s the second advice that I can give and perhaps the third advice is To really focus even as a small business to focus on Nurturing the talents that [00:28:45] you have in your business. So like for me, originally like I was again, I was also because I just started the business and also later on I was busy just running the business that I couldn’t really focus so much on my team [00:29:00] members I appreciated them and I also I tried to do things outside of the team the working hours, but it was never about looking really at their career paths and how they are growing.

[00:29:12] And the interesting bit is that exactly that is what [00:29:15] got me to Marketing Bear. My former bosses, they thought about me. How can they help me to grow? But in the early years, I did not focus as much as I should have, and on that, and I would recommend everyone really to [00:29:30] talk with the team members about their plans for their careers, their dreams, and then work together with them on how you can make that happen.

[00:29:38] How can you make sure that they achieve some of their dreams?

[00:29:42] Scott: Wow. I think those are just [00:29:45] great pieces of advice. There are several different directions we could take this, but one other piece we talked offline a little bit and There’s something else that I think you did that probably had a big part to do with your success. And it’s that you [00:30:00] pivoted when you needed to.

[00:30:01] So can you bring in that part of the story as to maybe what Marketing Bear started as and how you learn from the market and maybe changed what Marketing Bear became?

[00:30:12] Jan: Yes. [00:30:15] I have to say, so Marketing Bear like was the business that I started from the beginning, but actually in the first year marketing there was something entirely different. And I would almost consider this first year as my first failed startup. [00:30:30] Originally I had this idea to bring a business model from Europe to Thailand.

[00:30:36] So in Europe, it’s very common when you travel and when you are young that you look for discounts, like that you look for promotions, like for [00:30:45] like activities for restaurants, you always try to get the best deal because budget is definitely an issue when you are young. I thought it might work also here where tourists can get a card.

[00:30:59] It [00:31:00] was called White Card Asia. And with that card, they get not only the discounts, but also recommendations. So we really, at that point, we tried to partner with really good venues where you are safe. Like also when. We talk about [00:31:15] nightlife. Sometimes you are unsure to which place you can go, what type of place it is if you’re new in the town, and we really wanted to make sure that the places we partner with, they are safe, there’s there’s no human trafficking, for instance, happening, so we were very, we were very [00:31:30] careful selecting these businesses and I have to say it worked like at times, like at the very end, we had around 120 partners and they were also quite happy.

[00:31:41] They told us, yeah, it’s great that you bring us these [00:31:45] customers. And then something happened where these business customers that we brought tourists, they asked us actually, okay, you bring us customers like this, but by the way, can you also help us build the website? Can you also help us do [00:32:00] an app?

[00:32:00] And then we realized, okay, there’s maybe a need. Maybe we should also focus on that. And then at the same time, like when these requests started to came in, we also felt that it’s really hard for us to [00:32:15] grow further. We didn’t have any outside investment. We build everything ourselves organically. And we, I would say we did well with the resources that we had, but to go further, we either had to get investment ,or [00:32:30] probably completely change the business model. And in the end we decided, okay, let’s change. We have now these over 100 businesses that could become potential marketing customers. So maybe we should try to give them other types of services that [00:32:45] they also get more customers through these services and can grow their revenue.

[00:32:50] And that’s basically what then resulted in the shift. Then after a year and a half, we decided to completely stop White Card Asia and say, [00:33:00] okay, Marketing Bear, the company behind White Card Asia is now really just Marketing Bear. And we really live up to what is in our name marketing.

[00:33:09] And, that was the first major shift I would say. [00:33:15] And back then, like up until 2018, we always had a relatively small team. Like we, we had six to eight team members and it was really the small agency. And I have to say it’s also, it was lots of fun because [00:33:30] if you’re a small team you understand what everyone is doing.

[00:33:34] You really work very closely together you don’t just work on one thing but you need to be master of all trades because yeah when you’re a small team you need to help each other And it was a fun [00:33:45] time, but then like for a couple of years, I did not really know, okay, how can I now go a step further?

[00:33:53] How can I get to 10 to 12 employees? And by the way, when I say like growing employees, it’s always obviously [00:34:00] connected with also the projects that we get. So it’s, for me, it’s not just about getting employees. That’s not my goal, but it’s also like growing the business. And that’s directly related to the number of team members we have on Marketing Bear.

[00:34:10] So, yeah. When we were at the stage where I didn’t know, [00:34:15] okay, what else we can do now. And that’s where I got connected to the University of Newcastle, Australia through actually a customer asked us first, “Hey, can you help us with marketing?” And they work together with the [00:34:30] local university here in Thailand.

[00:34:31] And then this customer asked me, Jan, would you be interested in mentoring students? For the University of Newcastle. And these students, they are partly based here in Thailand. And I thought, wow, [00:34:45] that’s a great opportunity. I’m, I thought at first I thought, okay, I’m not getting younger and that’s probably a great way to connect again with the younger audience and also get their thoughts and views, because that’s important for marketing.

[00:34:56] You, you want to make sure. That you stay grounded. And at [00:35:00] the same time, you also understand that what the different generations need. And my like, as I grew older, like my connections to younger audience started to phase out and I thought, Wow, this is great. I can directly connect with students.

[00:35:12] I can see what they think, like what they like. [00:35:15] And at the same time, I hopefully can also help them a little bit with like issues that they have in their career path and their career goals. So that started and then the same customer that connected [00:35:30] me, but also the University of Newcastle, asked Newcastle, Australia, by the way, I sometimes used to say that.

[00:35:36] So that was the Newcastle, Australia. And both of them, they asked Jan, we are both not in Bangkok and there is the [00:35:45] Australian Chamber of Commerce. Would you mind attending some of these events on our behalf? And that was really the first time I even thought about Chambers of Commerce’s like I never really, yeah, thought of that.

[00:35:58] This is really my [00:36:00] place. I always thought this is, Yeah, it’s not the type of businesses that like I’m not in the type of industry. I thought it’s manufacturing. I thought it’s like quite senior banking individual individuals go there, but not someone like me. I don’t belong there, but they asked me [00:36:15] and by the way, during this podcast right now, I start to realize there’s a theme that I get pushed into.

[00:36:22] Into the right direction from the outside. But they asked me, yeah, can you attend? And I said, yes. And it was [00:36:30] really it took me a couple of events to be comfortable to understand how, what, how they work, what the agenda is also to get familiar with some of the phases of some of the individuals that go there.

[00:36:40] And then after a couple of weeks, I realized I should become a member [00:36:45] as Marketing Bear, not, I shouldn’t represent like my customer, the university of Newcastle, that’s great. Yeah. But really, I think there’s also an opportunity for Marketing Bear. And looking back, that was the moment where [00:37:00] we broke through this wall like from this small agency to the next level, like to between 12 and 15 employees.

[00:37:07] We had then a few months after that. And just because of these new connections that I have made through the Australian [00:37:15] chamber of commerce. I then also became members of other chambers. So for instance, the German chamber of commerce as well. And it’s just interesting, the type of individuals that you meet.

[00:37:27] And many times [00:37:30] it’s a connection that you get that it’s maybe not directly resulting in a client, but also sometimes you just get some experience back from a client. Individuals from business from other business owners here in Thailand that then help you to [00:37:45] realize Oh, I should maybe do that or maybe should do this.

[00:37:48] So If at all if you don’t get any business out of chambers at least you get experience like from some individuals that can help you to adjust how you run your business and I find this so [00:38:00] valuable and it really helped me in some ways to see things a little bit differently and do things differently and that was really the next step.

[00:38:09] And then, and Scott, I’m not sure if you want me to go ahead. It’s a very long [00:38:15] story.

[00:38:16] Scott: No please continue on. I have a lot of little bookmarks cause there are a lot of different ways that you take this, but please continue.

[00:38:21] Jan: Okay, fantastic. So then we were around like 15 team members and business was going well. And then [00:38:30] I made a couple of key contacts. Still today so I think it was 2020 and up until today, like our largest account in the region and now also in the Middle East and. in [00:38:45] Africa and India is Michelin, the tire company.

[00:38:47] And that was one of the companies that I got connected to through the chambers. And they helped us actually to grow one step further. So they started with a very small project with us. Like they just asked, [00:39:00] Hey, can you help us with some Google business profiles, like with the optimizations. And, I think it was originally like four.

[00:39:08] I think 60 or 70 business locations in Thailand. And today we are managing over a [00:39:15] thousand across the different different regions and also started to do paid ads for them. We helped them with search engine optimization and the, from back then to today, there was really like this slow process where they tested us out with okay, can they also [00:39:30] do this? Can they do that? And today, like some actually from Michelin, they confuse some of my team members to not be Marketing Bear, but Michelin team members, because we work so closely together. But really that helped us because we then had a case study [00:39:45] that we can also work with bigger clients, like with enterprises, global enterprises, and this opened then the doors when.

[00:39:53] to the chambers when I started speaking with some individuals that come from enterprises when I said, Hey, we work with Michelin, we [00:40:00] did this and this. And they could imagine, Hey, this would be something that also applies to us, like maybe Marketing Bear can help us. And that then opened the doors for us to grow from 15 to 30, where we are today.[00:40:15] 

[00:40:15] Scott: I’m seeing several different themes. Now you had mentioned that you’re seeing the theme that you had people nudging you in the right direction. But I would take that a little bit differently. I would say, yes, you had people saying, Hey, you should try [00:40:30] this or, Hey, you should go to this event. But it was how you handle that because I think a lot of people, especially with age, as you said, become a little bit more set in their ways, a little bit more less receptive to outside viewpoints, so they [00:40:45] might say, oh, I’m not going to go to chamber events, that’s a waste of my time, but the fact that you actually said, I will give that a try, or the fact that you said with mentoring, I want to learn from younger people versus shaking your your fist at the clouds and saying, [00:41:00] young people these days, you’re saying I want to better understand young people. So I, I just think that’s really interesting. And I would say that’s part of the thing that I’d attribute to your success is it’s not maybe to say yes to everything, [00:41:15] but it’s to not come in knowing all the answers. Another theme that I see I’ve worked with some business owners and they can be very experienced, sometimes experience that actually can be detrimental because again then you know too much, right?

[00:41:29] But [00:41:30] something, when you were talking about the pivots, your company made, I’ve seen some companies that say, I’m going to have my company. It’s going to be this, it’s going to work this way. And it’s almost like they might be trying to make the supply, like as in what they’re providing their team [00:41:45] members.

[00:41:46] And and trying to make demand fit supply. And 

[00:41:50] Jan: exactly. 

[00:41:51] Scott: is a really tough thing to do, but it sounds like you’ve, knew what you were going to do. You knew that your vision, as you said, you started Marketing Bear from the start, you knew it was going to be [00:42:00] marketing, but exactly what kind of marketing, it sounds like you’d took that from your audience, what you were good at, what people were asking for, and then maybe adapting team to that versus saying my vision is set. It sounds like your vision [00:42:15] changed over time.

[00:42:17] Jan: Yeah, I think that’s right. And I, on the other hand, also, I think it’s required in this industry. I think digital marketing is always evolving. And if you keep on doing digital [00:42:30] marketing always the same way, I think it’s, it will not lead to success. I think it’s required as if you are working in digital marketing to always look for new ways, how you can help your clients to reach the customers, the [00:42:45] audiences that they want to reach.

[00:42:47] And again, I have been fortunate that a lot of times there were external factors that reminded us that what is now needed at that time. So again looking back, like [00:43:00] from the very early start, like there was this need back in 2000, it was 2014, 15, where like these white cut Asia customers asked us for websites.

[00:43:09] And Scott, I don’t know if you remember, but really like at that time, there were still lots of Thai [00:43:15] websites that looked horrible. Like they look like they were from the 90s. And nowadays, it’s much better like it was quite a lot. But back then there was really a need for it and we were reminded by our clients and I think then [00:43:30] also like with other clients we had throughout and also Michelin that has also always been the way how we understood.

[00:43:36] Okay, there is a need that we need to think about. Okay, what else can we do? And I think it’s also based on the type of relationships. We try [00:43:45] to have with our clients like where it’s really, I really do not just want to be a provider. I want to be a partner where they feel open to share anything like anything relating to their business.

[00:43:57] Even if it’s bad news, it’s not always it’s not [00:44:00] always great. There’s also sometimes negative feedback, but I’d rather take that than no feedback at all. And that really helped I think us to get a sense of what’s needed. And I’d have no idea where we are heading in a couple of years [00:44:15] from now.

[00:44:15] But today I can say one thing that is, that it stays exactly how it was already a couple of years ago is the part that we focus on data. So no matter what marketing technique we use, no matter which channel we try to [00:44:30] play with we will always focus on that. We get the right data to make the right decisions on these platforms.

[00:44:37] Scott: No, excellent. Excellent learnings there. Another theme that I saw was the short term versus [00:44:45] long term. Cause I, love that you said that of course, as a business, you need to be profitable. You need to make money. You also have clients that are approaching and saying, look, we need some clients now. So you might appease that and say, look, we get that.

[00:44:57] We’ll offer a service that will help you now. Maybe it’s [00:45:00] optimizing a profile. Maybe it’s running some ads, but it sounds like you’re never leaving the longterm by the wayside. It just, you’re just giving, you’re buying some time to be able to do the longterm. And that’s with your clients. But then when you mentioned, The networking side of things.

[00:45:14] I’ve seen [00:45:15] some people that think of networking as the short term thing. I’m going to go to a chamber event and give out all my business cards and get clients, or I’m going to host an event or attend an event. Let’s say it’s not even a networking event. It’s I don’t know some, [00:45:30] something that someone put on and you’re, like, I’m going to go to that event and I’m going to get some client, I’m going to get a booth and I’m going to get some clients they’re thinking so short term and then it doesn’t work.

[00:45:39] Okay. And then, oh, that didn’t work. Let’s write that one off. And it sounds like you being [00:45:45] more of a longer term thinker didn’t give up on networking, didn’t give up on doing these things. It sounds like you dug your heels more into it. Cause you’re not just a chamber member, right? You’re highly involved in these things.

[00:45:55] You’re like leading mentor programs. You’re you’ve built up a leadership [00:46:00] position, which I assume didn’t pay for itself instantly, 

[00:46:03] Jan: Right? 

[00:46:03] Scott: to get the payoff from that. Is that fair to say? Okay.

[00:46:06] Jan: Yes, absolutely. I think that goes directly into a recommendation now. And so what I can recommend anyone going to these networking [00:46:15] events is to not think of, hey, today I sell X number of of new products to clients at this networking event. Because. Same as with marketing it’s all about trust.

[00:46:29] And [00:46:30] when you go to these networking events you need to start building relationships with the other attendees. And once they realize what experience you have or what value your product or services have, then later on, they maybe [00:46:45] contact you and you get a business out of it, but for a start it’s all about networking is about building relationships.

[00:46:52] It’s not about selling directly. And with that being said, I personally do not think it’s a good idea to [00:47:00] have team members at networking events that get KPIs on how many business cards they should collect. Because, if you have these type of goals, it maybe means that your team members cannot have really this deeper conversations [00:47:15] at these networking events with some individuals because they feel like, Oh, I just have five business cuts and I need to get five more.

[00:47:20] Sorry, I need to go to the next person now, and that’s not, how you build relationships. My, my recommendation to [00:47:30] anyone from Marketing Bear that I sent to networking events is just have fun just enjoy the evening and see who you talk with. Have good conversations. And don’t feel like you need to sell anything for marketing where and I’m quite firm on that Like I actually say [00:47:45] if I see that anyone hard sells marketing their services at these events, we will have a serious conversation because that’s not how I want to be represented I think I always want that we are helpful and that if anyone has a question we can answer that but the [00:48:00] main the key part is building relationships and getting to know different businesses. And then if eventually we, if we get business out of it, it’s great. Now that’s a one side from the team member perspective. And I’ll personally, [00:48:15] it’s been a couple of years like that.

[00:48:18] It took me at AustCham Thailand to become a director and where I also felt comfortable putting my name on the list to be nominated, to be a director. I [00:48:30] think. I, wanted to take my time to first understand how chambers work. Like I said before, like when it was like around 2018/19, when it was the first time I attended these events, I had no idea about how chambers work.

[00:48:44] And [00:48:45] like initially like, after a couple of times when I visited these events, I was asked, Jan, do you want to join a subcommittee? And even that I was at first a bit hesitant. I said, I can take a look. I joined one subcommittee meeting and see how [00:49:00] that goes, but I’m not sure, like I’m not because I didn’t understand how it works.

[00:49:04] So then over time, I realized, okay, there are X number of subcommittees in the chamber. They all have different focus areas. And then I thought, okay what, am I interested [00:49:15] in? So I started. First I think it was the SME subcommittee where I was a member in, and then I shifted to digital marketing, the digital marketing subcommittee, which was started around two years, three years ago.

[00:49:27] And then I led the digital [00:49:30] marketing subcommittee. And then at the end of last year, I was asked from existing board members, Jan, would you be interested to put your name up, like to become a board member next year? And. Then I also like I [00:49:45] had to again get a bit more information because I felt, okay, if I do this, I don’t just want to do it for the title actually also want to help the chamber and want to give something back because I got so much out of the chamber in terms of business.

[00:49:57] I want to make sure that if I’m. trusted [00:50:00] with the directorship role at the chamber that I provide the members what I need to provide as a director and again, I was in a similar situation as very early on where I had no idea really what exactly these director needs to do [00:50:15] I had a couple of dinners and meetings over a coffee with other board, current board members and ask them like, okay, so how much time do you need to spend every month?

[00:50:25] And like what other type of activities and tasks that [00:50:30] you, are assigned to do as a board member? And I realized that. Oh, I think I can do this. I think I can squeeze it into my schedule, like to be a director. And yeah, then I put my name up and luckily again, very fortunate. [00:50:45] I got elected and yeah, since this year, like I’m a board member. And one thing that I can say and I think that’s part of my personality. Originally I was told there’s a certain set of hours I need to spend like every month [00:51:00] on this. And at the moment it’s four times that number of hours that I spend. And it’s just because I want it to get things right. And especially I feel as a German in the Australian chamber of commerce, I have something to prove.

[00:51:14] I want to make sure [00:51:15] really that I get do everything as best as I can. So right now it’s a lot of time that I invest in it, but. At the same time, it’s very rewarding. We just had last week, our first digital workshop. So I started a new subcommittee, [00:51:30] last year, there was a digital economy subcommittee and digital marketing subcommittee, and both of them, they were so similar and at the same time.

[00:51:39] There, the chamber has so many events going. There’s so much like also like lots of members know this. There’s [00:51:45] so many newsletters that are going out. That luckily like our president, she also understood we need to fix this. We need to reduce the number of subcommittees we have, the number of communications we send out.

[00:51:59] We [00:52:00] decided together that it makes sense to just have one digital subcommittee that covers all types of digital areas and yeah, literally last week we had our first workshop on AI and it was quite successful and I’m very [00:52:15] happy with that and now we are planning the next event.

[00:52:18] Scott: Wow. This is really enlightening because these are things that I wasn’t aware of. I’ve been going to the Australian Chamber events, just the Sundowners and the other lectures that happen. But, again I, and I knew about [00:52:30] NextGen Thailand, which is also through AusCham and just great, events there.

[00:52:36] So anyway, I was aware of little bits, but I’m realizing now it’s the tip of the iceberg. And that just speaks to the idea that people think maybe of [00:52:45] chamber events in one way, but they’re maybe missing out on where the real benefits are. But having said that, again, I love the, your way of thinking about things.

[00:52:52] It sounds like it’s very, give first oriented. So it’s, I’m going to mentor people. Maybe it’ll [00:53:00] come back to me. Maybe it’ll be really rewarding because I’ll see them, Be successful in the future, or I’m going to give to the chamber members as opposed to trying to get a title. And that way of thinking, I think it’s just pay it forward, give first and the world gives back to you.

[00:53:14] I’m, curious if you [00:53:15] have any sort of philosophical ways of thinking of the world that makes you seem that you operate more that way. But it seems like it’s worked for you, 

[00:53:26] Jan: yeah. Like for me, it’s all, I think it’s [00:53:30] maybe empathy that drives me like where I, know as a business, for instance, we need to sign contracts, but in the end, I always want to make sure that we not just deliver, but over deliver with clients. And it’s the same with [00:53:45] the chamber as well. Like I want to make sure that we always do the best possible thing we can do.

[00:53:50] I can do, I personally can do. And like you said. It’s always about paying forward and I’m a [00:54:00] believer that eventually it will come back like in one way or another. And even if it’s for instance, like I had, one connection that I made at the Australian chamber was a business owner.

[00:54:13] He asked me about AI, like that [00:54:15] was last year and, I said I’m fine. Like I have actually, like at that time I said, I have half an hour. If you like, you can invite your team members. They can ask me anything. How we use Chat GPT and how we use the different tools. And I [00:54:30] did this completely like for free.

[00:54:31] That was just like, because I wanted to help. And I felt Hey, they need support. It was, I heard some things, how they use chat GPT. And I was a bit worried for them. Like that they use it in a way that can hurt them later on. [00:54:45] So I really wanted to do that. I wanted to help that. And it was really not out of out of the idea that there’s any business that I can get out of that.

[00:54:53] But. Then later on, that was early this year, the business owner of that company recommended me to another [00:55:00] company that now became our client. And that is just it’s just perfect.

[00:55:05] 

[00:55:05] Jan: And Sometimes it’s three steps, 

[00:55:07] yeah, yeah, yeah. 

[00:55:08] Scott: this was simply one step removed. That’s amazing.

[00:55:11] Jan: Maybe one other thing that I can share paying [00:55:15] forward with the mentoring. So I had this, quite interesting situation. I think it was two months ago. As a reminder, again, I studied in Germany and also the university where I studied, like it’s a small [00:55:30] university, like it’s, not, a famous one.

[00:55:33] And back then also at the university, I did, they offered some mentoring and then also, like I said before, like there was mentoring also throughout my career, like from the previous job that I had. [00:55:45] And now I am doing mentoring and then. Two months ago, one of the students that I’m mentoring came to me and said, Jan, I’m going to Germany next month.

[00:55:56] Do you have any tips for me? And I said, Oh, that’s interesting. Yeah, of course I have tips. So [00:56:00] you can ask me anything, but why are you going to Germany? And she said, yeah, I do. Six, I think it was like six months. She said she wants to go to Germany to study there. And then I said, wow, that’s cool. Which university?

[00:56:10] And turns out it’s my small university that she’s choose like without knowing [00:56:15] where I studied, where she’s now going. And then I connected to, my mentor from back then, who’s still at that university and I said, Hey, by the way, now a mentee of me comes over. So make sure you take care of her. And so far I heard only good things.

[00:56:29] She’s having a great [00:56:30] time over there. And it’s interesting how small the word is sometimes. Okay.

[00:56:34] Scott: That’s amazing. That’s amazing. It sounds like you’ve had good mentors over the years, and then now you’re again, paying that forward and giving back and letting the cycle continue. That does lead me to one other bookmark we had was [00:56:45] you were talking about the employees that how you’ve grown your team and how you’ve made sure they had a bit of a career path, which it sounds like that wasn’t really in place at the start of the business.

[00:56:56] But now that you have that [00:57:00] formulated a little bit and you’re, helping your employees grow and not really hit those glass ceilings. How do you go about hiring new employees now though? Because I assume, remember you said you’re around the 30 person range. I’m going to [00:57:15] guess that you’re going to continue to be successful and grow.

[00:57:17] And you’re right. Like it’ll become a little bit less personal and you have to learn how to keep the, culture going when you get past the knowing everyone’s name right away. But in any case, I’m just thinking if you are going to grow those team [00:57:30] members, what would, what do you look for when you’re hiring to keep the way of working, the quality of work and everything up?

[00:57:38] And they just office culture that the, personality of the culture and things like this. What do you look [00:57:45] for?

[00:57:47] Jan: So the first thing we look for is always the personality. Like we need to see if if the person, if we can easily talk to a person, if it’s, if they are open. [00:58:00] For those that watch the video, I know some of you might be listening, you cannot see this, but actually behind me on that side, we have our core values like here in the office and our core values they are around customer centricity, like it’s, trans [00:58:15] transparency. Like always like striving for innovation, being creative, and all of these can be personal traits, like it can be an individual that has all of this, but maybe lacks experience and. [00:58:30] I take a person that has these type of traits rather than someone who comes in with experience and maybe lacks some of these characteristics that we are looking for.

[00:58:42] My recommendation is [00:58:45] for any business owner here, especially in Thailand, sometimes maybe choose a candidate that does not have the exactly right experience and train them, nurture them in a way That they get the experience that they need. [00:59:00] And then if they realize, and if that’s also, they are aligning with their career goals, and if they realize what you have given to them, then there’s actually a mutual bond between the employee and the business.

[00:59:12] And like one thing that [00:59:15] I hear a lot of other business owners, I’m saying is that they have a problem with the turnover, right? They have lots of employees leaving. They always need to hire new employees. And I think it’s all about career perspectives. I know it’s sometimes easy [00:59:30] said, it’s all about the salary and in some ways that’s right.

[00:59:33] Like many employees they, also need to pay their bills. And I understand that. But at the same time, if it’s just if there’s just a small difference, they would not leave the business if [00:59:45] they realize here at Marketing Bear, or he had any other business, I can grow and I can reach the goals that I have set for myself in my life.

[00:59:55] I think that when it comes to hiring, do not just [01:00:00] perhaps do not just look at always hiring new people, but also look at the current team that you have and see like how you can keep them with you for as long as possible. And sometimes also it will just not work out. Like sometimes you have employees that get a great [01:00:15] offer. Like I had two years ago, I had to, for instance, an amazing developer. We really like also personally, we got along so well and he did a fantastic job. And then he got an offer from an international company that had so [01:00:30] many benefits, had a higher salary. He was allowed to travel to different countries for conferences with that.

[01:00:37] And I knew I cannot compete with that. So I. I tried the best, like to wish him the best, like [01:00:45] going there. And I’m, really excited for him that he had this opportunity and up until today, like we, like once in a while, like every few months we write with each other and I just want to know what’s going on in his life and just see if it worked out and did for him.

[01:00:59] [01:01:00] And I think sometimes we need to accept as business owners that, the, that we cannot be the permanent employer for every employee, but we should try at the same time for that time, we have these amazing individuals. We should try to [01:01:15] get the most, effort out of the, out of them for the business that is mutual beneficial, like that.

[01:01:21] They also get something back. 

[01:01:24] Scott: Love that. And I’ve sometimes seen businesses that go into such a path of thinking [01:01:30] what they need right then. And they get their employees to almost learn just proprietary processes and proprietary ways. And they’re not necessarily thinking how to have that employee grow. Just imagine if you’re specializing in, this is exactly how we do things.

[01:01:44] That, [01:01:45] that employee is becoming an employee and they’re not going to have a great growth trajectory if they decide to leave later on. But I love, as you just said, you want there to be an alignment to where if you help them be a better person during the time they’re with you, they’re going to be a good employee.

[01:01:59] And, when [01:02:00] they eventually leave, who knows, maybe they’ll actually now refer some of their friends back to you to also be good employees versus trying to lock them down. So that’s really interesting. And the other thing that comes to mind, I’m curious if you have any thoughts on this, but onboarding, [01:02:15] because, let me just bridge this gap for a second here, but I have gone through the path of making some mistakes as well, where I Originally, it was hiring a lot of younger, inexperienced people that you can grow into the roles.

[01:02:28] And I’ve seen some [01:02:30] companies do that. And then I’ve seen some of those employees struggle. And I think some then based off those things I’ve seen, I’ve then said, you know what, maybe now it’s a time where we need more experienced employees and we need people that aren’t necessarily all fresh grads.

[01:02:44] And [01:02:45] that could be true in some cases where you need really specialists, depending on of course the industry and everything. at the same time I think there’s another blind spot there, which is some companies don’t spend enough time nurturing those existing [01:03:00] employees, as you pointed out, making sure that when they’re onboarded, they have everything laid out for them, making sure that they are able to be introduced to all the different departments.

[01:03:09] Making sure that they have a career path, making sure that they’re getting biannual reviews and getting constant [01:03:15] feedback, making sure like all these other things to nurture a good employee. I think that sometimes owners may think that’s a, I don’t have time for that. I’m too small. I don’t have time to do that.

[01:03:25] Whereas I’m curious if you were to go back, maybe at the start of your business, you didn’t have time for [01:03:30] that, but it sounds like you made time for that. to spend more time on developing your employees. What, do you have to say about that?

[01:03:41] Jan: Yeah. First of all, it takes a lot of time to think about, [01:03:45] okay, what is the best way for your business to onboard new team members, but. It is, I think in the end, it pays off even if it takes a couple of days or even weeks to get this right, I think it will pay off in a sense that [01:04:00] if you make sure that the employees feel welcome, that they really feel like they are not just employees, but they’re really part of the team and they have, they are an important part of the team that actually can change things in the business as well. I think if you make sure that they [01:04:15] understand that right from the beginning, there is a higher chance that they will stay with you and that they feel happy in the workplace they are in. If you rush that and basically everything is just thrown at them in terms of workload, I think there’s a high [01:04:30] chance that they question, is this really the right place for me and for my career? And then as a business owner. You would maybe save time by not having prepared anything, but you will lose time by then you need to again prepare a [01:04:45] job ad. You need to think, okay, where do you advertise for the job?

[01:04:48] It’s also expensive, like some of the providers in Thailand, like the more popular ones. In my mind, they are very expensive. And so I think. It’s there’s [01:05:00] almost no question like you need to take the time. It will save you time later on and it will save you funds later on. One part that I can recommend other business owners is also to make the career growth part of the [01:05:15] performance appraisal.

[01:05:16] So we have every six months we have a session with each employee and we talk about their performance. Also they rate themselves. But one part that we look at is also. How much they have grown. And we [01:05:30] do this by looking at, have they signed up for any courses? Have they got certificates? And we, as a company, we support our employees.

[01:05:37] We give them time off for the courses. We pay for courses. If they are paid courses if we agree on that. And [01:05:45] it’s just part of our culture. We expect that from everyone to continuously learn and grow. And if you have that documented, if it’s written down in a sheet where they see their score, it’s much easier to communicate and much more transparent [01:06:00] than just saying, okay, now go out and learn things.

[01:06:02] I think it needs to be really structured. It needs to be a process in place. I can recommend, any business owner to do this. It really helped our, team.

[01:06:11] Scott: Yeah, that’s great advice. Great advice. Now I want to also highlight [01:06:15] something recently with Marketing Bear. I understand that you were recently approved for BOI under the board of investment. Is that right?

[01:06:22] Jan: Correct. Yes,

[01:06:23] that’s correct. 

[01:06:24] Scott: process for you? Why did you decide to go down the path of becoming a BOI company?

[01:06:29] And [01:06:30] then, how did you go about doing that?

[01:06:35] Jan: So since the beginning, since I started the business, I knew that BOI existed, but especially in the early years, I always felt like [01:06:45] this is only for businesses that bring in huge investments into Thailand. I never felt like it’s something for me. I always felt like I’m this little tiny business. They would not care.

[01:06:56] They wouldn’t even bother. Like listening to me, what I plan to do. [01:07:00] But then over the years I heard like more and more success stories parts, partly from clients, partly at the chambers, the connections that I made. And we are now at a point where it would be beneficial to also have more [01:07:15] foreign team members.

[01:07:16] Like just because the type of clients that we have, and sometimes it is good to have someone with a cultural background from a foreign country in the team. And I had the option, do I do it with the current company setup that we have [01:07:30] at the moment, which would basically mean I would need to invest. 1 to 2 million baht in capital.

[01:07:37] I would need to increase the company capital, but 1 to 2 million baht for every work, additional work permit that I issue. And the alternative [01:07:45] was I should look again at BOI and see if there’s any way we could get certified and approved by BOI. Last year I also met one other person. I’m also in one of the [01:08:00] Rotary clubs and there I met one person.

[01:08:01] He said, yeah, last year, I just did it myself. It’s super easy. I’m like, why are you not doing it? And I felt are you serious? That cannot be like, because also in the same meeting, there was a lawyer and he was saying, yeah, it takes a [01:08:15] year. Maybe you will need like around 300, 000 baht, like for fees for us, to do that.

[01:08:21] And I had these two separate opinions, but then I thought we can just try the worst case. We don’t lose anything. And worst case, BOI says no. [01:08:30] I had this brainstorming session with my team here, like with our accounting, HR, like all the administrative stuff, and I, introduced them to the BOI because for my Thai staff members, like some of them, they didn’t know, like for them, it’s [01:08:45] something they haven’t heard about.

[01:08:46] It’s not their expertise. And then I set them off the path, like to say, okay, inform yourself, let’s see what we can do. Basically, since then, they started to give me feedback and said, Jan, we need this, we need that. [01:09:00] And I helped them to provide that. Partly it was like a business plan. The BOI wanted to see what type of business we are, like how it’s structured.

[01:09:08] And I was also always imagining in the end, the BOI will ask me to bring in [01:09:15] more investment into Thailand. They’re for sure. That would come. So I already prepared for that. There was parts of my salary that I paid myself for the last couple of like months in Germany to, to have funds abroad, to bring them then in, into [01:09:30] Thailand.

[01:09:30] And, then it was. I think six or seven weeks ago, like we got verbal confirmation already where the BOI said yeah, it’s approved. You will get it. I didn’t believe it at that [01:09:45] time because it was just hearsay. Someone said we get approved, but I didn’t see any document. Then we got a virtual certificate.

[01:09:52] It was about four weeks ago. Then I thought, okay, this is getting real, this is starting now. It’s awesome. And now two weeks ago my accountant [01:10:00] put the official certificate on my desk and said, Jan, it’s done. What’s next? Let’s continue. yeah, now we are BOI certified. So that means like we have less restrictions hiring foreigners.

[01:10:12] There’s also some level of tax incentive for [01:10:15] us. And personally what I think I will enjoy I haven’t seen it yet, is I heard lots of good things about the visa and work permit process. So in the past the way how my company was set up, I had to go to [01:10:30] Chaengwattana, which is very slow, but we got used to it.

[01:10:32] I don’t complain. It’s all good. But yeah, like I heard this will be a lot easier now. So let’s see.

[01:10:40] Scott: Yeah, I can tell you from experience, it is quite easy. The [01:10:45] in Chamchuri Square, I believe it is. There’s the one stop shop and you go in and it’s I think the times that I’ve gone in there over the last several years, it’s, a 20 or 30 minute thing. Now, again, you sometimes want someone to get you a queue number still, but it’s nothing [01:11:00] like Chaengwattana.

[01:11:02] I think you’re gonna quite enjoy that transition to be under being under BOI. And just for, again, listeners who may not know about BOI, I think that the key, it’s really amazing that you were able to get it. I love that your friend was like, [01:11:15] why are you even thinking about it? Just do it. It’s, a take, take the action. Why not? 

[01:11:19] Jan: And can I just 

[01:11:20] Scott: Yeah. 

[01:11:21] Jan: I can’t just add one thing that I forgot to say. And the amazing thing was also that in the end, the DOI did not ask for any more investment. [01:11:30] Like they just said, Jan, you’re already invested like 13, 10 years ago. You don’t need to pay anything more. We are happy.

[01:11:37] That’s it. And I was like, what’s going on? This cannot be real. So yeah, that was another nice anecdote, like the [01:11:45] story.

[01:11:45] Scott: And that’s, amazing. And actually, to that point, I was going to say the BOI, it seems like it’s, great. I think it’s only good things. They’re trying to get investment to Thailand and they don’t want fly by night companies that aren’t going to contribute anything to the [01:12:00] Thai economy.

[01:12:01] And to that point, it’s obvious as to why they probably made those judgment calls and saying wait a minute, you started a company here. You’re growing people here. You’re mentoring people here. You don’t, I’m not sure how much of that they knew from the paperwork. But the point is you’ve obviously

[01:12:13] employed a number [01:12:15] of Thai people and certainly helped them develop and done some great things. So in that case, it’s a win, right? Why wouldn’t they

[01:12:22] Jan: Yeah,

[01:12:22] Scott: So that’s fantastic that you were able to accomplish that. Now I know I’ve, used a lot of your time. I do want to transition though to something in [01:12:30] the last few minutes here, that’s really important. 

[01:12:31] We’ve talked a lot about business. But there’s also the personal side. And I was wondering if you’re open to sharing this, 

[01:12:36] you bought a new car for the first time?

[01:12:39] Jan: That was, yeah, that was like four years ago. It was for me a big milestone. Because [01:12:45] when I started the business, like I always paid myself last. There was some months like that were really hard on Marketing Bear, where I didn’t get any salary and it was really a slow process to build up to the place where we [01:13:00] are today.

[01:13:01] And one of these milestones was for me to just have a car, like to have a car here. And back in 2013, that was out of reach. It was impossible. Like even a lower end car. I [01:13:15] wouldn’t even think about buying that. And then when I was like around four years and when I bought the car, I felt Hey, first milestone achieved now what’s next let’s continue.

[01:13:25] Yeah, but it’s all about and I want to quickly take a little detour there, [01:13:30] Scott, I’m sorry. I would, but it’s also if you’re a business owner, like sometimes it maybe feels like there’s, it’s overwhelming. There’s so many things that happen to you that require lots of attention and lots of energy.

[01:13:43] So I think. [01:13:45] It’s always important to also on the personal side to make sure that you have your own goals as a business owner personal goals that you want to achieve and they also can help you to stay motivated because if business is not going well, sometimes you need something else [01:14:00] that motivates you because otherwise it could be a very difficult time and for me back then it was the car now another milestone if you don’t mind was for me to be able to get my son go to international school.[01:14:15] 

[01:14:15] That’s so I have a son and originally like when we got him, like three years away, how you say to get a son,

[01:14:24] Scott: You got a son. Did you pick them up from somewhere? Did you buy them from the shop?

[01:14:29] Jan: Keep in mind, I’m [01:14:30] German. Originally, like when we had him I, I didn’t think we would be able to do that because international schools are quite expensive in Thailand. And now first of August, he will go to an international school and I’m very proud that he [01:14:45] can go there, like proud for him.

[01:14:47] He already tried the school uniform on and it looks amazing. And I think it’s these type of steps that you need as a person that keep you motivated. Yeah I [01:15:00] can really, I can say, I really appreciate everything that has happened the last few years.

[01:15:06] Scott: I love that you pointed out that you need to have something outside of the business because when you’re saying like, if it is your only identity, then potentially [01:15:15] you’re building a business. And I think one of the sad things I’ve seen is that sometimes when people build businesses, they don’t necessarily build someone to take over their business.

[01:15:22] They build a business that is dependent on them and they can never leave that business. And then it’s their whole identity, maybe for their whole career. It’s the one thing that they do [01:15:30] because they don’t have time to have children or they don’t have time to to go to a racetrack if they like racing cars. They don’t have time for any of that. So they, their whole identity is their business. And the saddest thing is that when they pass away or they have to retire, whatever it [01:15:45] is, that business just crumbles because it 100 percent depended on them. And 

[01:15:49] Jan: Yes. 

[01:15:49] Scott: it’s just I love the fact that you’ve said there’s more to life than just the business.

[01:15:56] And sometimes you have to pay it back to yourself. And I just use that car example. [01:16:00] Cause when you share that with me offline, I thought it was so interesting. Because you’re quite a modest person. You’re not buying some Ferrari or anything like that. But give something back to yourself because what are we living for?

[01:16:10] There, there’s one side where it’s dramatically saying, I’m going to spend all my money and not save anything. But then there’s the other extreme, which [01:16:15] saying I’m going to invest everything in the business and never give myself any pleasure. And it sounds like to be more sustainable, you have to strike a balance.

[01:16:24] But to your point about having a son, so I understand you have, your son is about three years old now,[01:16:30] 

[01:16:30] Jan: Yeah. Three and a half. You also have a son, right? Scott.

[01:16:33] Scott: I do. I have a son and a daughter and a stepson as well. And it’s 

[01:16:38] Jan: I

[01:16:39] know that. 

[01:16:39] Scott: yeah, it’s yeah, it’s amazing. All I can say, it’s amazing. So what has your experience been like [01:16:45] since having your son?

[01:16:49] Are you spending more time with him? Are you going out to parks more? What was that transition like for you?

[01:16:54] Jan: Yeah that’s a good question. So I guess [01:17:00] actually I had to focus more on a proper work life balance. Because before before, also before I got married and yeah, before we had our son, like I, I could work as much as I wanted. And I felt [01:17:15] like I’m not harming anyone. This is fine. It’s just me.

[01:17:18] Sometimes even like work two days straight, like without sleep like there were really tough weeks in the past. And, nowadays because I have a family [01:17:30] and especially because I have a son I feel like I’m responsible for him, to also give him time and attention like enough time and attention every week.

[01:17:42] And partly I do this like we have [01:17:45] at Marketing Bear we have a work from home policy, so it’s at least good that I’m around, like I can stay some days at home. But also I say that Sunday is usually our day. Saturday is together with my wife, we maybe do something little, but Also, other [01:18:00] Saturdays I might work half a day, but most of the time, like Saturday, at least dinner, we do all three of us, we do something together.

[01:18:06] But then Sunday, I usually, I take him and I try to catch up with everything that has happened during the week that I maybe missed because I was so busy. [01:18:15] And I can say, at least for myself, I get energy from that. It really helps me to be motivated again on Monday to start my week at Marketing Bear, because it’s the balance.

[01:18:27] I think it’s important to just be able to do [01:18:30] something completely different. That is. There’s no connection to the business, but see the development of your son, like how, or the development of your kids like what they can, what they achieve to be able to do so quickly and how they progress. [01:18:45] it’s just amazing to see that.

[01:18:47] Yeah, these Sundays, we usually like, like you said, we might maybe go to parks, we go to indoor playgrounds. We just try to have fun. We have sometimes a bit too much ice cream together. But [01:19:00] yeah it’s just it’s really good. And yeah, that’s, I think that’s how I try to have a work life balance.

[01:19:07] How is it for you? Like, how do you manage? 

[01:19:10] Scott: Yeah, so I do primarily work from home, so that [01:19:15] I think is an amazing benefit. I will say during. Covid time I actually moved to the suburbs to live in a house because I was at the time I was dragging my son around in his on his training wheels on a bicycle around a condo [01:19:30] where like cars were coming by and I was like This is the only way I can get my son out riding a bicycle.

[01:19:34] And so I made that transition around covid because it was like now you’re in and I can barely go anywhere, and I have two young children this is [01:19:45] not gonna work for me. That’s around the time that my wife and I decided to buy a house, bit out, 

[01:19:50] Jan: Awesome. 

[01:19:51] Scott: Still, we’re still in Bangkok, but a little more in the suburbs and so now I get to spend a lot more time with them, I go on walks more often, I and [01:20:00] I don’t know.

[01:20:01] We just always go to the park together and things like this. And I think it’s incredibly rewarding. Now one piece of advice that I have for people, and I’m curious if you would agree with this, is that never, when you’re very career oriented, if you’re a business owner, if you’re doing a lot, [01:20:15] don’t have the feeling that, Oh, one day I’ll be ready to have a child.

[01:20:21] Because there’s no correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think that there was probably a lull in your business where you’re like, Oh, Now we’ll have a son, right? [01:20:30] It, there’s never quote the time to do it, but once you do it, you realize you’re going to make time and you’re going to make it work.

[01:20:38] And you also find out that you might not have those Sundays for working anymore, but it’s worth it. [01:20:45] 

[01:20:45] Jan: Yes. Exactly.

[01:20:48] Scott: That’s just, that’s just something I would tell everyone is that It’s incredibly rewarding. Not everyone can have kids. Not everyone will have kids. No, no pushing stuff there.

[01:20:56] But I just say that if you’re considering it and you’re waiting for the right time, [01:21:00] there’s no time like the present. Yeah.

[01:21:04] Jan: I couldn’t agree more. And looking back, like I, I wonder, was it really necessary? Like the time I invested, like also on the weekends to work because it seems to work now as well. Like where [01:21:15] I take this day off and maybe it’s really like this, what I mentioned, getting this energy back because it’s really rewarding, like spending time with the family.

[01:21:23] Maybe this energy that’s the, that’s what evens everything out. Yes, you spend less time, but maybe you are more [01:21:30] efficient than going forward because you have this motivation from your family. And I can agree like it, there’s never the right time. In fact our son was two weeks early.

[01:21:43] And I had planned everything [01:21:45] perfectly. Like I, I took days off, like I already informed clients, Hey, in one month during that time for two, two weeks, I will be out, like you cannot contact me. And then he was two weeks early. And so I had to make it work somehow, but it did. And [01:22:00] also I have to say back then also the clients that were very understanding, like there was no issue whatsoever.

[01:22:05] So I can really recommend if you’re considering this. Just start and yeah and don’t think there’s [01:22:15] ever the right moment. There’s never the right moment for it.

[01:22:19] Scott: And one other point that I want to get your quick opinion on here is raising a child in Thailand. I think some people may think, Oh my gosh, you could never [01:22:30] do that. You should go back to Germany. Now’s the time to do that. Because. just a feeling that you can’t do things right here.

[01:22:38] Whereas you pointed out, of course, there’s schooling to consider and it is significantly more expensive to go to international schools here in Thailand. [01:22:45] I feel comfortable here because as much as you might have to work harder to be able to pay for things like schooling and things do get expensive, it is possible here, right?

[01:22:56] So there are good schools here. There is good health care here. [01:23:00] are options here and you don’t necessarily have to go back to a home country, but I assume that wasn’t even on the that wasn’t even a consideration for you. Did you feel quite confident after being here for so many years that you said, you know what?

[01:23:12] I can build a family here.[01:23:15] 

[01:23:16] Jan: Yes to an extent, like there was, and I have to be honest like after the first couple of months with our son, like I was thinking, okay, like another three years. And then there’s a big [01:23:30] expense coming from the school side. And then also, yeah, like you said, healthcare, it’s amazing, but also that is, quite costly as well.

[01:23:38] So I was looking at all of these costs and I was like, at one point I was honestly worried, like how, can we make this [01:23:45] happen and also live like that, that like you also, you don’t want to give up everything. And in the end, actually, when you do the math and you look at all the costs, actually, it is possible to be [01:24:00] here in Thailand and to live in Thailand.

[01:24:01] And it’s not so much different from any other country. The costs are different. Like in Germany, for instance, you would pay way more tax. I would need to pay like a lot more than I do here. And then also not [01:24:15] everything is free. So for instance, kindergarten also, you need to pay some parts as well.

[01:24:20] And if you look at all of these costs of living as well. Actually, Thailand is actually quite a good country to live in, even if like individual items [01:24:30] might be quite high priced the grand scheme of things, like it’s still worth it. And I also want to highlight it’s for me, it’s not just the health care and also the schooling, but really also all the activities that you have so close by here [01:24:45] in Bangkok, especially, I see I have like a niece and a nephew and. see them they grow up in Germany and they just stay at home and now they are similar ages as also as my son and [01:25:00] they I see they’re mostly inside and they just They now play they have the Nintendo Switch, I honestly think it’s because there are not many alternatives and the parents not always also have time to do a lot of things, but [01:25:15] here, you have these day schools where you can send your kid to to just learn things like little gyms for little kids where they can have fun, run around, yeah, you can have play groups, and there’s just so much that you can do [01:25:30] that I feel He is probably more active here than he would have been back in Germany.

[01:25:36] So I’m very happy. I think it’s a great place. Being a kid.

[01:25:40] Scott: Yeah great tips. There’s options here. That’s just the key to [01:25:45] everything that you said. It’s if you want to go to, I don’t know, a karate class, if you want to, whatever your children want to do. are here. And one last thing I’ll say on the schooling is that there are international schools, which are, there are some fantastic international [01:26:00] schools here.

[01:26:00] Yes, they’re expensive. They’re also bilingual schools. So it’s just this school where they might say, okay, 50 percent is in English, 50 percent isn’t high or different ratios. And they’re probably not classified as international schools, but I’m just saying those are what I [01:26:15] call kind of middle tier schools.

[01:26:16] They’re not like the public schools. They can be quite impressive though, as well. So again, it’s back to, there, there’s options and you can find what works for you. And one thing that I always like to look at is and say, look, if billions of people have done this before and had [01:26:30] children and they’ve done it, with no schools.

[01:26:32] They’ve done it where they throw their kid onto the farm and they make it work. Many people have done it, therefore you can do it. You can make it work. But anyway enough, pitch about having children. I suppose you’ve been incredibly generous with your time, Jan. I [01:26:45] really appreciate it. 

[01:26:46] To close things out, what is the best way for people to get in contact with you either personally mentoring Marketing Bear how do you recommend they reach out to you?

[01:26:58] Jan: Okay. First of all, [01:27:00] if you want to connect with me digitally please look up my name on LinkedIn. That’s probably the best way to reach out to me, even if it’s also a request for marketing, but please just send it to me. 

[01:27:09] But also I want to say if you do see me at one of the networking events please [01:27:15] don’t hesitate. Just come over, say hi. I would love to have more exciting conversations and yeah learn also from more business owners. So yeah, please say hi.

[01:27:26] Scott: Well, I hope you enjoyed the episode. A big [01:27:30] thank you to Jan for sharing his journey and valuable lessons with us. I’d encourage everyone to attend one of the upcoming Australian or German chamber events in Bangkok, and you might just get to meet Jan in person. If you’re looking for marketing help, [01:27:45] definitely visit Marketing Bear to get in touch with Jan and his team.

[01:27:50] If you got value out of this episode, please subscribe, share, and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. I hope you learned something and I’ll catch you on the [01:28:00] next one.