Mark: [00:00:00] When you step off the airplane here and you feel that wave of humidity and you smell the air, and then you go have your first bowl of noodle soup.
You either love it or you don’t.
Look, it’s a different culture here. And even though I ran global law practices having a law firm here is a, has proved to be a much different experience.
Over the last couple of years, there’s been a real sea change in the kinds of multi year visas that are being offered.
There are simpler, frankly, better ways to come into the country.
Scott: Well, hello and welcome to Made It In Thailand, the podcast where we learn how to thrive in Thailand from top performers who have found success in the Kingdom. I’m your host, Scott Pressimone, and today I am speaking with Mark Friedman. Mark is the managing director of Baan Thai Immigration Solutions.
Now I was lucky enough to record this episode in the Baan Thai office, which is very conveniently located on wireless road Right [00:01:00] across the street from the U.S. Embassy and the U.S. Ambassador’s residence. Easily accessible by BTS and Phloen Chit Station, I believe.
Is that right, Mark?
Mark: That’s the one.
Scott: So, Baan Thai is an immigration law firm and helps with immigration here in Thailand as well as visas for other countries like the U.S., Canada, Australia, and you know, virtually any, any country from my understanding, right Mark?
Mark: That’s correct. So we think about Baan Thai as a Thai home and that’s whether expats are making Thailand their home personally or they’re doing it for business purposes. We also help Thai nationals immigrate primarily to English speaking countries.
So that would be the U.S., Canada, Australia, uh, and the UK, but we also do Schengen visas to the EU.
Scott: you could help Thais. You could help foreigners, if they’re residing here and want to stop by the office, right?
Mark: And as a member of the California bar, I can help Thai nationals. with their federal immigration, U.S. Federal immigration visas that I [00:02:00] can represent them on that.
Scott: So I want to touch a little bit into your background, Mark, because I mentioned that you are a lawyer from the U.S., but were you an immigration lawyer in the U.S.? Can you give us your, your story there?
Mark: Sure. I started out as a trial attorney, uh, and then I had the great good fortune to go in house at one of my principal clients and I stayed in house for the rest of my career, eventually becoming general counsel for privately held and public companies, all of which were based in Los Angeles, so I was also fortunate in that regard.
Um, had global legal teams, and so we dealt with immigration issues and visa issues, uh, from time to time, and it was just a lot of fun kind of playing with some big toys and dealing with some great executive teams.
Scott: Well, speaking of that, do you have any highlights in your career, any individuals that you met or you learned a lot from during, during your career in the U.S.?
Mark: Yes, certainly. Um, Michael Johnson, uh, who is one of my, one of my CEOs, is just a remarkable guy and in his 60s was [00:03:00] doing the TransAlp race, but just a terrific leader. Uh, Paul Major was the first person that hired me in as a general counsel to a company. just an extraordinary business person whose father was a Supreme Court justice in Canada.
I’ve had a number, I’ve been very fortunate in having a number of, of bosses and mentors over the years that have just, um, provide an example of what right looks like when you’re building a business.
Scott: So did you expect that you’d be a business owner? Was that kind of the natural path you’re always thinking of?
Or?
Mark: No, as my wife will tell you, I really am terrible at retirement. Um, you know, I left my last GC job and the plan was always to come back to Thailand. My wife is Thai. We had property here for many years, which we built on and we have a farm here. Um, but I get restless and bored a little easily. And, and I saw a need in the marketplace.
Um, and so tried to fill that need.
Scott: So let’s talk about your history with Thailand or with Asia. So [00:04:00] in that career where you’re looking, working for some big companies, really respectful, um, uh, owners and leaders that you’ve learned a lot from. I, did you ever do any work on this side of the world or what was your exposure to Thailand, to Asia?
Mark: So first exposure to Southeast Asia was food because living in Los Angeles and I also lived in Seattle.
There were large Asian populations there. I live to eat. I just love eating. Um, so fell in love with cuisines. And also was studying Buddhism and meditation. And so was attracted to this part of the world. And I think there’s folks that when you step off the airplane here and you feel that wave of humidity and you smell the air, And then you go have your first bowl of noodle soup.
You either love it or you don’t. And I fell in love with the area.
Scott: Did you sweat your first few bowls of soup?
Mark: I did. I did indeed. And I, I learned that if you order things a little spicy, sometimes it comes in a little more than that. So, but, but just fell in love with the area.
Scott: Now, you [00:05:00] mentioned your passion when it comes to immigration.
You’ve experienced, uh, maybe some challenges with immigration. So can you explain a little bit of the story of your wife and kind of what you all went through that maybe kind of perked this interest?
Mark: Sure. So, um, my wife and I both experienced relocating to a very different kind of environment. And my wife, um, left Thailand for the United States in 2009.
Um, I hired a good lawyer, immigration lawyer, to help me in L.A. But it was really her first experience with dealing with the U.S. Embassy and the U.S. Government. And I wanted her to be completely comfortable. So I hired yet another resource here to help her with her medical clearances, police clearances, and with the U.S. Embassy interview. Um, my experience coming here was not terrific to be quite frank with you. I didn’t find the same kind of roadmaps and dedicated software and sort of the same structure in figuring out, okay, what are my visa options? [00:06:00] What are the pluses and minuses of each of those? And somebody just talking me through all of that.
And that’s really where I thought there were kind of two opportunities. One was to have, to replicate a U.S. Law firm here, but to also offer native Thai speakers help for spouses and fiances and parents and so on, but also try to replicate that same U.S. Immigration experience for expats coming into the country.
Scott: So you mentioned sort of. Strategic advice, thinking long term, and I do think people have a thought about like visa agencies here in Thailand, right? Yeah, it’s a little bit different than an immigration law firm like Baan Thai.
Mark: Yeah, look there’s I think a lot of good resources out there and there’s a lot of visa agents that will kind of hold your hand as they take you down to Changwatana and will help you through various processes.
We try to look holistically. What are your aspirations? Who are you? How long do you want to be here? [00:07:00] Then talk to you about, excuse me, all of your options and really let you make an informed decision about the program that’s right for you. And it could be a program that starts you here and may change over time, but gives you that optionality in the longterm.
Scott: Yeah, I’ve experienced that myself. I can say I’m a bit of a researcher. I like to dig through forums, learn what I can try to figure out what visa is right for me. But, uh, I would say looking through forums, there’s. There’s conflicting information, uh, I’ll admit I probably waited too long to talk to an immigration law firm like Baan Thai because there’s just this feeling of, oh, I can figure this out.
Uh, that’s right for me. But then later on you find out, oh, that’s outdated or that visa’s changed or there’s something new. So, yeah, I, I always am a proponent of doing your own research. But if you can get free consultations and stuff, then it’s worthwhile talking to someone that has their ear to the ground.
Mark: Yeah. And I, I, I would [00:08:00] say there’s good information out there. Like the BOI website for, for example, the longterm resident visa, the LTR visa is an excellent website. But the B. O. I. officers on the ground have a changing perspective on what they want to see and what they’ll accept and sort of, how do you qualify?
And we have one legal counselor here that spends a couple days a week down with the B. O. I. talking to officers. And so, you know, there’s no intention to have outdated information out there. It just becomes outdated as different Thai government agencies change their perspective on things.
Scott: Got it. That makes sense. Things change and you just have to, again, be cognizant of, you got to know what’s happening on the ground, you have to know whether or not the checklist has changed, whether or not what’s online is necessarily the way things are interpreted.
So there’s kind of like reading between the lines a little bit.
Mark: Exactly. And the one, there’s, there’s two things to remember. The law in Thailand changes frequently. And [00:09:00] officers of various government agencies are imbued with a great deal of discretion. So you combine those two things and it’s good to speak to somebody either who recently went through the process or Makes it a career to kind of get to know these folks and get to know exactly what’s happening
Scott: Got it.
Now I want to talk about the founding of the company because this is always interesting. I think people are always thinking should I start a Thai business? Should I start a business in Singapore or in the US and then have some operations here in Thailand? It can be kind of a complicated issue and obviously it’s a case by case, right?
And I know, um, but, but I’m just curious about what your case was, Mark. Like, what type of business did you decide to do? Why? Um, and what was that experience like for you starting a business here in Thailand?
Mark: So, so I had longstanding, uh, relationships with some folks here that initially came into the business with me.
Um, had a vision for business. sort of the services that I wanted to deliver here. And then there’s the legal structure [00:10:00] around what’s possible as a lawyer or as someone managing a law firm. Those are two very different things. Foreigners can’t be lawyers here. And I get that. And I respect that. So I could be a California member of the bar and do us immigration law from here.
But you know, of necessity, I needed to hire good Thai legal counselors and licensed lawyers. to represent the expats here before the various government agencies.
Scott: Absolutely. So then, so then this was under a Thai company legal structure, is that correct?
Mark: Thai limited corporation with majority Thai shareholders, for which I am a director, a minority shareholder, and the managing director kind of on the day to day.
Scott: Got it. It’s a bit of a side point, but it’s been an area of my personal interest, but you being a U.S. Citizen, You could have started a U.S. Treaty of Amity company, is that correct?
Mark: Not for a law [00:11:00] firm, but for many, many companies offering typical, you know, services or manufacturing. Yes, um, Thailand and the U.S. Are enjoying this year, 190 years of formal friendly relations. It’s been a great relationship over the years. And yes, there is a special Treaty of Amity where U.S. Citizens can own a Thai limited corporation here.
Scott: Hey, sorry to interrupt, but I’ve got a quick message to share. If you own a business in Thailand, or if you’re thinking about opening an office here, there are a few challenges that you might face. First, for every business, growth is essential. Whether you’re targeting the local Thai market, or if you’re serving clients outside of Thailand, you’ll need a marketing and growth strategy.
Second, you’ll need to hire and train your Thai team. And while there’s a ton of excellent talent here, there’s certainly a learning curve when it comes to attracting and retaining people. Third, to get the best results from your team, you’ll need to develop your [00:12:00] operations and systems of accountability.
I’ve spent over 10 years helping Thailand based businesses overcome these challenges, either acting as an advisor or as a hands on leader within the organization. I’d love to hear more about your situation and goals to see if I can help. I’m currently offering a free consultation to podcast listeners and I’ve included a link in the description.
Now let’s get back to the episode
Now, we talked about what Baan Thai does. Since we’re talking about, um, you know, offering legal advice and things like this, there’s obviously different types of law.
There’s immigration law as opposed to other law. So what sort of legal services does Baan Thai not provide?
Mark: So I think, you know, as we try to build the Baan Thai brand, what do we stand for in the expat community and others minds? You know, Baan Thai means making making Thailand home or creating a Thai home overseas.
So what do we have the license to do? I think it’s a fairly broad license in terms of helping somebody set up a corporation [00:13:00] Or having somebody have a will created here, right? So they’re protecting their assets as well as the standard kind of visa and immigration practice However, I don’t think we have the license necessarily to do litigation intellectual property work, sort of things outside of that genre of making Thailand home.
And so, you know, will the, will the business change over time? It may, but we’re very conscious about. You know, what do we stand for in people’s minds? And what will they give us license to do for them?
Scott: Got it. Now, there’s another thing that I wasn’t too aware of previously, but it’s the benefits of working with a lawyer versus someone who just knows immigration.
And so can you explain what the benefits are for working with a lawyer? Do they have any ability to represent you in a different way? Can they get paperwork for you? Can they, like, what is actually the difference or what’s the importance of having that?
Mark: So there’s legal counselors here. It’s a little different paradigm, as I found out, [00:14:00] than in the United States, the UK or other Western countries. Okay. But licensed lawyers here can do additional things like notarized documents. They become tax specialists and can with the right training file tax returns and that sort of thing. Whereas if you, and, and they can represent you in court or speak, I think with more gravitas to certain government agencies.
So that’s a little different. You can hire an agent or a legal counselor, uh, to represent you and take you down to Chaengwatthana and take you through the process of getting a visa. That’s, they’re not prohibited from doing that. Um, but I do find that people that are good legal counselors that have taken the time to go to a good law school here, um, um, are better parsing through.
Um, the legal particulars and really understanding the nuance of the law as opposed to somebody who is trading on longstanding relationships.
Scott: Got it. [00:15:00] As we’re thinking about, uh, immigration here in Thailand, let’s just say as a foreigner, I know you do the, you help other people go to other countries, but if we’re just talking about a foreigner coming to Thailand, what are maybe some of the biggest challenges you hear about, either from clients, prospects, or other individuals you’re speaking with, what are the biggest challenges they face in the immigration side of things?
Mark: So I think the first thing is to figure out what you want to do here. How long you want to be here. What are your aspirations, right? Are you here for an extended holiday? Do you someday maybe want to work or start a business? Are you here due to family reasons? Um, and is Thailand home for the foreseeable future?
Or you’re a global traveler, and I’ve run into these folks, and two years and, you know, And I’m on to the next country, that kind of thing. So it all starts with sort of an analysis of who’s sitting in front of us, who’s, who’s the client and what do they want to get out of this experience. And from there, I think the biggest [00:16:00] challenge is they hear different things.
There’s all these different programs. And in fact, over the last couple of years, there’s been a real sea change in the kinds of multi year visas that are being offered. Um, and so it’s really kind of. Kind of helping them understand what the choices are in the near term, the long term. And cobbling together a program for them that makes sense.
Scott: Now, are there any common misconceptions that you come across frequently? Uh, I, one that comes to mind and, uh, maybe you could expand on this is sometimes I talk about things like permanent residency because full disclosure, that’s a process that I’m going through myself. In fact, with Baan Thai and I, I chose Baan Thai cause I, of course, uh, have talked with you a lot, Mark, about my longterm goals, right?
Um, but. I had a lot of misunderstandings about permanent residency. Um, can you share any that you’ve heard very frequently from some individuals that come into this office?
Mark: On permanent [00:17:00] residency particularly?
Scott: Or any others.
Mark: Or any others, okay. Um, so, We get a lot of folks that are interested in what’s called an OA visa, which is a multi year visa that you can apply for overseas, but it requires because it’s a multi or it’s a long term visa, it requires a police clearance and insurance and all these other kinds of things that make it much more complicated than filing for a 90 day non O visa overseas.
coming in, opening your bank account and extending year to year without the need for a police clearance and insurance and so on. So people get in their head that this is, you know, I’ve read about this OA and this is the way I want to go. And there are simpler, frankly, better ways to come into the country than that.
Um, I think the other thing is, is that if your touchstone is the U.S. Or the U. K. or Australia, you think that because I’m married to a Thai, that permanent residency is going to be something that, you know, I’m entitled to, as you would be [00:18:00] taking your Thai spouse to the United States. My Thai spouse has completed her journey to citizenship and now holds a U.S. Passport. It’s, it’s very, very different here. And you really, in order to truly immigrate to Thailand, you have to earn it in every sense of the word, and that is make some money here at a certain level, pay taxes here, and so on, and kind of prove your economic contribution to the country, not just that you’re supporting or a part of a Thai family.
Scott: One that I’ve heard a lot, uh, related specifically to permanent residency is, Oh, I don’t have a chance to get it. They only accept a hundred applicants per year. Have you heard that one?
Mark: I have, I have indeed. Um, so really, uh, that quota has only ever applied to two passport holders of nationality, and that would be Indian and Chinese for everybody else, for all other countries around the world.
That is not a barrier, uh, to becoming permanent to becoming a [00:19:00] permanent resident. What becomes a barrier to becoming a permanent resident is being consistent in the visa you hold for three consecutive years without a single break, people change jobs and they go, oh, well I, I changed jobs and I had a non B here, and I had a non B here.
But there were three days in between. You have to start that, that three year period over. And there’s also a lot of misinformation, including on official websites that go back to, I think 2003 on how much you need to be earning here, which. Just to put a pin in a map is about 100, 000 Thai baht a month or about $3,000 a month.
Scott: Got it. So just to summarize, if we’re thinking about the limit of PR applicants when you hear a number like a hundred that’s not a hundred total applicants for the year. It’s per nationality.
Mark: Per nationality per Visa holder, right? So the U.S. Will have a hundred person quota I don’t think they come anywhere close to that year in and year out.
So that should not be a barrier However, if you’re thinking about permanent [00:20:00] residency I would start to study thai sooner rather than later because you need to have what I would call intermediate conversational capability in the language.
Scott: Got it. I understand you’ve been studying Thai as well. So this may be, I know a lot of people get put off by Thai and it’s this insurmountable thing.
I can’t understand the different sounds or whatever else, but I don’t think they’re looking for mastery in the language, right?
Mark: They’re not. They’re looking to see, are you making the effort, right? Can you carry on a conversation with the language? You know, if you’re going to immigrate here with your, with your, with your fellow ties, um, I frankly think the best thing you can do is learn to read the language starting with the alphabet, just like you’re in first grade, because I don’t think you can ever pronounce it properly and get the nuances until you can read it.
So it’s, it, it’s effort, but. It’s worth it. I mean, you know, you put in the effort and the reward is, is so great. And the great thing about ties is they give you so much [00:21:00] credit. For trying.
Scott: Yeah.
Mark: Right. Um, put gang, you know, you’re, you’re, you’re doing great. And you feel good about that. I happen to live when I’m not here in Bangkok, running the firm up in Petchabun province in a, in a area with so few expats that the mayor of the town introduces me as his American.
Um, so if I don’t speak the language, I don’t eat and that’s not, that’s not acceptable.
Scott: Got it. So it makes perfect sense. I think rather than letting it put you off, uh, As you described it, it’s just showing that you care enough to try. It’s about showing respect. It’s about saying if you want to immigrate here, if you want to live here long term, then you have to care enough about Thailand to put in that effort, right?
Mark: Exactly. And it is kind of fun to drive around and you read signs on stores. And I’m like, my wife rolls her eyes. I’m like a six year old. Oh, I can read that sign. And you know, they do car windshields. And she goes, yes, yes, they do. Thank you for telling me. But, but it is rewarding to get to that point.
Scott: Yeah, [00:22:00] absolutely.
Well, let’s focus specifically on maybe some of the changes that have happened here in Thailand recently. You, you sort of alluded to this, but I feel like there’s been a bit of a shift. in the visa types. There’s been a lot of new visa types introduced. Um, can you sort of describe maybe over the last few years, what you’ve been seeing?
Because again, the company was founded a few years ago. I assume even since coming here, you’ve, you’ve seen a lot of changes.
Mark: Big changes.
Scott: So what have you seen?
Mark: So the first big change for those of us who were here during COVID, and this is an economy that, that really revolves around visitors was, it was like a bomb off here.
The buildings were all here, but just no people. And so, Thailand needed to revive its economy in a post COVID world, and the BOI, the Board of Investment, which is, uh, its charter is to drive economic growth and reinvigorate the economy, came up with this 10 year LTR visa trying to attract successful or highly talented people.
That means what they call wealthy pensioners, I would say successful folks overseas, who are [00:23:00] now, they’re trying to attract to Thailand, or people willing to invest money here, or highly skilled people willing to work here either remotely for large companies or for Thai corporations and they are highly educated.
And that’s a 10 year visa. It offers tremendous tax benefits as well as as other really compelling benefits. So that was the first big change. The second big change and the toughest conversation I would have with people is some somebody under the age of 50 who doesn’t have a Thai family. And isn’t working for a Thai company.
And you’re really trying to cobble together kind of solutions for them. Other than just coming in either visa exempt or under a tourist visa and that might be an ed visa It might be border runs, but both and the ed visa not to use acronyms here education visas So you sign up for example for a thai language course. Both border runs and the ed visas have a limited lifespan So it’s not really a long term solution [00:24:00] A couple of months ago that conversation became much easier and I was frankly quite surprised at this new destination Thailand visa.
It’s a, it’s a five year visa. It’s incredibly cost effective and it’s really for anyone of any age. It’s amazing.
Scott: Right. So I do remember cause I came here. You know, 12 years ago or so, and I remember individuals that fell in love with the country and thought, Oh, I’ll make this work here. They were doing a lot of those visa runs, you know, renewing tourist visas, going to Laos and coming back.
And I also remember some periods where there were little, Some more crackdowns on that, right? Yes, and so it can be incredibly stressful when you’re like, oh, I love this country I have a lease I have you know, all these other things and I’ll just keep doing these border runs Well, all of a sudden, oh now there’s some political turmoil or there’s this other stuff going on And now I’m getting rejected at the at the border.
That’s very stressful I didn’t experience that but I’ve heard of plenty of those stories. [00:25:00] Yep, and it sounds like Something like the destination Thailand visa. It’s opening that gap It’s opening the door a little bit more to maybe digital nomads, maybe individuals who want to stay here longer than just a vacation.
And, um, I don’t know, like rather than saying good luck going on your, on your border runs, uh, it sounds like Thailand saying, okay, we’ll welcome you in, you’re spending some money here, you’re, you know, paying a lease here, you know, I know that’s not required, but the point is they’re opening the doors a little bit more.
Mark: I would say they open the door quite a bit more to folks that want to work remotely here. I mean, if you’re lucky enough to work for a company and they say, yeah, you can go work in Thailand. That’s great. But for people that are self employed content creators, consultants, that sort of thing. If you want to, if you want to open your shop here and earn money outside of Thailand, but live here and take advantage of the cost of living.
The DTV visa is perfect for you. You do need to show that you can take care of yourself, but I think the bar is pretty low It’s about [00:26:00] $14,000 $15,000 in a bank account as at at a snapshot You don’t have to purchase insurance, which a lot of countries who have similar kinds of programs require you to do You don’t need to show a salary of a certain amount But it’s 500, 000 Thai baht, about $15,000 $16,000.
Um, now that’ll vary by embassy, right? Like everything else in Thailand, the people that run the embassy at one country may disagree a little bit with another country or have slightly different standards. So it’s important to talk to people that know, but, um, it’s, it’s, it, it’s an excellent visa for somebody who wants to work here for a while and you get stamped in and your stays are 180 days at a time.
Scott: Hmm.
Mark: And if you go to Cambodia or you go to Singapore, you go back to the States, right? And visit the folks, you come back in, you’re stamped in for another 180 days. So it’s a, and, and by the way, the cost of the five year visa is 10,000 Thai Baht. So it’s incredibly cost effective.
Scott: [00:27:00] Got it. So you’re not necessarily even investing in the Thai economy.
You’re just saying, if I’m coming here, I have enough money in my bank account to not be destitute and living on the street. You’re proving that you have your finances in order. Okay. And that maybe you have a reason to be here, whether that’s a Muay Thai course or something else like this. Um, and you’re going to be a good, a good person that’s here.
And yeah, so I get it. So that, that is opening the doors quite wide. That’s a pretty low bar.
Mark: So you do raise a good point. So one is remote workers, right? The other category is kind of cultural immersion. So you can sign up for a Thai cooking school or Muay Thai Academy. I don’t like to get hit that hard.
So I’d go with the cooking school. Or if you need medical treatment, Thailand and especially in Bangkok has been a medical treatment destination, tourist destination for many, many years. And if you need some sort of ongoing treatment or, or care here, that’s another way to qualify for the DTV visa.
Scott: Yeah, absolutely.
Well, yeah, it’s opening the doors for [00:28:00] sure. Now something we didn’t really touch on yet, but speaking of changes, you mentioned DTV is a big change, uh, some other programs that have come in, but what about taxes? Have there been any recent tax changes that are either upcoming, um, that we should be aware of?
Mark: Yeah, tax is kind of a hot subject right now. Um, Thailand has never been like a free tax zone. They’ve always taxed foreign earned income. So if you come in and you become domiciled here, taxed domiciled here, means you spend 180 days or more, half a year or more, here in Thailand, Thailand will consider you to be domiciled in Thailand for tax purposes.
So your foreign earnings, were always taxed if you brought those foreign earnings into the country. There was a bit of a loophole that they tightened up last year, uh, in terms of the timing of those earnings. Now it’s whenever you were in those, it’s still taxable if you bring it in, right? The revenue department [00:29:00] is now talking about expanding that to all of your foreigner, um, which will be a big change for people.
Now the good news is there is a visa program like the LTR visa that exempts that. From taxation, but there’s also double taxation agreements with the vast majority of Western countries, which means that if you pay tax on your money at your home country, let’s say the us, you and I will always be taxed, domiciled in the US.
As long as we have a passport, um, we will get credit in Thailand for the taxes we pay. In addition to that, those double taxation agreements. exclude certain categories of income, for example, like Social Security. Now, I’m not a tax advisor here. I’m not a tax expert, but this does speak to the need for people to go and talk to taxpayers.
to tax advisors because at the end of the day those of us who spend most of the year here should be filing a Thai tax return and now the question is how do I avoid being the sucker at [00:30:00] the poker table? I’ll pay my fair share, I’ll file my taxes, but how do I minimize that burden legally?
Scott: Right. I think I’ve heard even situations where let’s say that you’re, you know, from Canada, you’re selling your house.
You have to think about where is that money going? Is that all flowing into your bank account? Like, I think even like the time that you sell your house or where you’re living when you sell your house, it’s like things like this are worth thinking about. You don’t necessarily want to sell a house, say, I’m going to get on an LTR visa, fly to Thailand.
Like to your point, I think you need to talk to people ahead of time because I think To your point about that tax burden, it’s like, that can make a big difference.
Mark: It can make a huge difference. And I have a great tax advisor here, and I have a great tax advisor in the U.S. Because I’m, I’m going to always be filing a 1040 there as long as I hold a U. S. passport. Um, and I’ve found that, um, Getting good tax advice has never been, um, you know, a burden [00:31:00] in the, at the end of the day, it’s always been a net benefit for me.
Scott: Yeah, for sure. Now I was thinking, since there’s so many different visa types, maybe we could do a bit of like a rapid fire. Okay. My goal is to kind of give some of the common situations.
Uh, that people I think are in or some friends or people that I’ve met here have been in and we can think what’s the typical visa type and of course, as we talked about before, every situation is different. I assume you should talk to someone on a one, you know, one to one basis, but ballpark. So you get an idea.
What’s the right visa for these different situations?
Mark: And I’m going to jump in and do my usual disclaimer. This is not legal advice and legal advice would be given by a Thai legal counselor or one of our lawyers and based on your particular circumstances, but this is kind of for informational purposes and to get you thinking.
Scott: A hundred percent.
So the first one is, let’s say that you are familiar with Thailand. Maybe you have come in on a tourist visa. You travel here every couple of years. You love the place. But [00:32:00] you are considering staying a bit longer term and potentially making Thailand your home base for a while. So you want to kind of hop around to some countries around, you’re maybe taking a sabbatical, anything like that to where you want to go a little bit beyond a tourist visa.
Mark: Yeah, and I think the DTV visa is ideal for that person. Um, for 10, 000 Thai Baht, it’s not a big investment. It does. It is a unlimited access to the kingdom and in that it’s a true multiple entry visa. So you can kind of come and go as you please. Staying for 180 days at a time. And by the way, if you don’t want to be taxed domiciled here, stay for 175 and then go elsewhere.
But it offers that optionality and flexibility for anybody who hasn’t said, I’m committed to making Thailand home, but, I also don’t want to come in for a two week holiday and, you know, go down to Ko Samui and go snorkeling for two weeks. I really want to get to know the culture and, um, take advantage [00:33:00] of the cost of living if you’re a remote worker or really kick the tires to decide if retirement is on the horizon, this might be the place for you.
Scott: Got it. So, so maybe you are approaching retirement and you’re thinking, Oh, maybe I want to move to Thailand. Maybe I want to live in the Philippines. I’m not sure yet. Uh, then something like DTV could work because it’s giving you, it’s buying you time, right? And you can explore a little bit more here and make sure it’s right for you.
Mark: And Thailand is a great regional hub. I mean, Suvarnabhumi, the airport at Phuket, Chiang Mai are all international airports. You know, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos are all an hour away. Singapore is a couple hours away. India is three hours away. So, if you really want to soak in the region, um, this is a fantastic home base to do that from.
Scott: Got it. So, destination Thailand visa DTV. Got it. Now, the next one, this situation is, let’s say you want to be able to Come and go easily to Thailand. You don’t really want to invest a lot of time. Your focus is [00:34:00] convenience. You just say, I want to be able to get off the plane, do what I want to do. Come and go when I please.
Money is no object in this case. I’ve definitely met some of these people where money is no object and convenience is the top focus. What do you think?
Mark: So I think that’s the privilege visa and that’s exactly what this is designed to and you can buy a privilege visa for five, 10, 15 years. They have an excellent points reward program, concierge service, fast tracked at the airport, um, and you, you aren’t limited to stay 180 days at a time.
You can stay year round, year in, year out, it’s really up to you, truly multiple entry, and even things like the 90 day residential reporting, which you have to do here, uh, under a lot of visa programs, they’ll take care of that for you if you’re here in Bangkok.
Scott: Got it. Got it. So, Thailand privilege, and I think that went by a different name before, is that right?
Mark: That’s right. Most people will know it as Thailand Elite, but they [00:35:00] did a rebranding and a sort of reorganization of the program, um, including enhancing the rewards points program last year. So Thailand Elite now is Thailand Privilege.
Scott: Got it. Okay. So super convenient, easy, you’re kind of filling out some forms and then you can kind of
Mark: The easiest. The easiest.
Scott: Fantastic. Now, what about if you’re looking to stay longer term, you’re later in your career, um, maybe you have substantial investments, so you might not necessarily be retired, but you’ve made a good life for yourself, you’re doing okay, you’ve got your dividends, you’ve got your investments, maybe you’ve got some investment properties, right?
Mark: So if you have something kind of kicking off some money here and there, um, what, and you’re thinking, you know what, I want to stay in Thailand a bit longer, I’m pretty acclimated to it. I might want to make it my home in the future. I might want to go down another path, but what do you think is best?So for somebody that’s been successful and, and is concerned about foreign sourced income being [00:36:00] taxed here, if they intend to live here and become taxed domiciled here more than 180 days, and they’ve got a two, three, maybe five, or longer window, I think the LTR visa, the BOI LTR visa is certainly worth looking at.
Um, that visa costs, the government fee is 50, 000 Thai baht. So it’s again, a pretty cost effective visa, but the tax exemptions for the wealthy pensioner, the wealthy global investor, people investing here, uh, or the remote worker working for publicly traded company. You’re tax exempt and you don’t have to worry about it. In addition to other benefits including the fact that you’re not Extending the typical what’s called a non o or non immigrant visa every year and spending a day down at Chaengwatthana Your residential reporting is annual rather than every 90 days.
They really tried to make this Um, a very attractive program for successful people that want to [00:37:00] protect, um, their foreign sourced income and also their time.
Scott: I think you mentioned, I heard, I heard that I can BOI again. So, so I, I’m familiar with BOI because I, I’ve gotten work permits, uh, or my renewals are done at the board of investment office in Chamchuri square.
So it’s quite convenient. It’s very different than what I experienced in the past at Chaengwatthana. So are you saying the LTR that’s managed through the Board of Investment as well?
Mark: It is. And in fact, on the same floor as the B. O. I. offices that manage the L. T. R. is an immigration office. So you can get stamped in there. It’s, it’s, it’s very convenient.
Now the Board of Investment also offers corporations Tax and other incentives if you qualify for one of their promotional programs. So if you’re thinking about starting a business here, it is certainly worth looking at whether the business you’re thinking about starting is one of those businesses [00:38:00] that is certified by the Board of Investment.
Scott: Right. I, the way I would describe the board of investment, uh, office, I guess, that I’ve gone into when I’ve had to do renewals, it’s a little bit more like a bank in that, you know, they’re seating, it’s relatively busy. You’re kind of getting your queue number and you can get in and out of there very quickly.
Like it’s quite efficient. It’s, Not chaotic. I would say Chaengwatthana can be chaotic. Um, it’s not that people aren’t working hard, but there’s just so much volume there. There’s so many people waiting in line there. And I’ve heard of people staying all day long trying to get some stuff done, because maybe there’s understaffed and there’s just a ton of people.
There’s a ton of demand, right?
Mark: I, I feel for the officers at Chaengwatthana, I mean, they’ve just got, they’re dealing with lots and lots of folks and with varying degrees of skill and respect and so on. And it’s a tough job, but the BOI is typically dealing with folks that want to start a larger scale business or [00:39:00] a business that’s focused on, um, tech or other kind of, uh, High value areas or on the on the visa side, dealing with successful people in one way or but I love the Board of Investment here.
It reports directly. To the prime minister and its chargers to drive economic growth, and I think they do a very good job.
Scott: Yeah, absolutely Okay, so then the last one I have here is let’s say that you are well established in Thailand Perhaps you own a business. Maybe it’s a board of a business that’s run through the Board of Investment But it could be any business and you’ve been working here or let’s say you’ve been working for a company for a few years. So really what I’m describing is, if you’re running a business, if you’ve just been working here, you’ve been doing that for many years, and you’re kind of like, I’m tired of doing the 90 day reporting, I still, yes, the BOI office is easy to do renewals, or Chaengwatthana is not so bad, but I still like, feel like I’m a guest here.
And if I’ve been here for five years, or [00:40:00] three years, or ten years, I don’t want to feel so much like a tourist, uh, I want to feel more established. What sort of options are there for those individuals?
Mark: Well, I would certainly, uh, point them to permanent residency, and there’s only two ways to truly immigrate to Thailand, and that’s permanent residency and citizenship.
Citizenship is a different kind of program, it’s, there’s, there’s a lot more, um, discretion, and it’s a little more opaque, um, but if you’ve been here for three years, and your roots are really deepening, friendships, business relationships, you’re committed to Thailand. You know, if you lose your non B visa and we all learned from covid that businesses can can go sideways pretty quickly, um, for or go sideways for a host of reasons.
You essentially have, if you’re non B is canceled seven days to either leave the country Or figure out an alternative solution. And if you’re not married to a [00:41:00] Thai or don’t have Thai dependents, that can be kind of a hair raising moment, right? So with permanent residency, your stay in Thailand isn’t based on circumstances, whether that’s, you know, a Thai family or a job or other circumstances that allow you to stay here.
You have immigrated to Thailand and you have a right to be here, just like a citizen does for as long as you wish to stay here. Now there are some conditions. Right. You have to put your foot in Thailand at least once during the calendar year. You still need a re entry permit when you leave the country.
But outside of that, you really have secured your place in Thailand, and you’ve protected the things you’ve built here, whether that’s a social network, or you’ve got, you know, you’ve purchased a condo, or whatever it is, the life you’ve built here is now better protected.
Scott: Right. You know, it’s interesting, you mentioned that you have to be here You have to, you know, step your feet on the Thai, uh, Thailand soil, uh, maybe one day a year.
That [00:42:00] seems actually quite good and, and flexible because a lot of residencies I’ve heard of in other countries, number one, I hear like, Residency or citizenship by investment. Maybe it’s for South American countries or something like that. I’ve heard, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars. You have to buy real estate, stuff like this.
So number one, the financial burden can be in the tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars, right? And then additionally, I think some of them will say you have to stay there for 30 days or six months or whatever. So I think that varies. So maybe there are some that don’t require you to be on the soil, but the idea of being able to come back to Thailand and maybe you move back to a home country for a little while, maybe you’re taking care of aging parents, whatever it may be, to be able to fly back to Thailand, step on the soil, that doesn’t seem all that difficult to do.
Mark: Yeah, and compared to permanent residency in the United States, where you’re declaring to the USCIS, the U.S. Customs and Immigration Service, it’s You intend to be a permanent resident, which means six months a year in the U.S., give or [00:43:00] take, right? So that’s kind of a different paradigm. Now, once you become a U. S. citizen, after a few years, you can do whatever you want, right? But until that point, you’ve got to make a much bigger commitment. So, the bar to becoming a permanent resident here is higher, but then once you achieve that bar, What Thailand expects of you is lower, and it’s much different in the U.S. It’s kind of the opposite.
Scott: Hmm. Now, one other thing I kind of want to grill you on a little bit is, I’ve heard from people that say, well, hold on, you have to pay money for permanent residency, so there are fees associated with it, there’s time associated with it, there’s a lot of paperwork associated with it. Yes. Why not just get citizenship right away?
Mark: Well, first of all, if you’re not married to a Thai national, it’s not available to you. Permanent residency is the stepping stone. to citizenship. And second, citizenship requires a greater degree of commitment to Thailand, both in terms of your language, your knowledge of civics, your knowledge of the royal [00:44:00] family and so on.
And, and I’m not saying that citizenship shouldn’t be considered. I’ve met a lot of folks who have become citizens here and love the fact that they’re, uh, now fully integrated in, in, into Thailand. Um, but permanent residency, I think, or offers a shorter path and it’s a more certain path, uh, to being here, not based on the conditions, uh, that a visa might, might offer.
Scott: Yeah, I think with permanent residence, you can’t buy land, there are some other things that you can’t do. But, you know, I’ll share that one of the things that attracted me a lot about permanent residence was that it’s kind of that step in the door where if I know I can fill out some paperwork and I can feel more established here in Thailand, and then potentially down the road I can, you know, even learn more Thai, uh, More Thai language, and I can take some more steps, then eventually I can go down the path of being a citizen.
So, so it’s kind of, like you [00:45:00] said, it’s a stepping stone, and in my case, I’m married, uh, my wife is Thai, so I could technically have skipped this step, but my fear was, well, if situations change, if I apply for citizenship, and I don’t get it in time, and something else happens, and whatever else, well now, I So I kind of like, I kind of feel like there’s a foot in the door where you’re starting to take those steps.
Even if you’re married, it could still make sense.
Mark: And I would say you have both feet firmly planted in the house. Um, meaning that you’ve immigrated to Thailand. And you’re going to get a Tabien Baan, a blue Tabien Baan, which is a house book. I think there’s an intrinsic value to land here and being a Part of a residence means something and I think having that blue Tabien Baan and having permanent residence allows you Um to conduct business here more easily Um and buy a car get your driver all of that as well as Coming and going as you [00:46:00] please
Scott: Got it.
Yeah. Yeah. I think there’s a lot of perks to it for sure. Um, now I want to pivot back to the business side of things. So how long have you been here operating, uh, in Thailand? How long has Baan Thai been around?
Mark: So we started this business in October of 2021. So we’re, we’re going to, we’re actually celebrating our three year anniversary.
Scott: There you go. Wow.
Mark: Yeah.
Scott: That’s fantastic. So in those almost three years, right? Um, have you had any experience, any challenges, Mark?
Mark: I, I think anytime, um, you try to start a business 8, 000 miles away from home, you’re going to experience some challenges. Uh, look, it’s a different culture here. And even though I ran global law practices for, for corporations and I hired lawyers all over the world. I think having a law firm here is a, has proved to be a much different experience. Um, I think the legal training here is different. In the States, [00:47:00] it’s four years of undergraduate, three years of law school plus you’re studying for the bar.
And so you have a more mature and more dedicated you know, group of people that are calling themselves lawyers or legal counselors than necessarily here. I do also think that there’s a kind of fundamental difference in the way that I need, I need to learn to interact with my Thai staff. We Americans tend to be very direct and we just speak our minds and we expect that back.
Yeah. And, uh, the culture here I think is, is, um, much more, um, it, it, there’s an all based on, there’s a, there’s a respect for the title of managing director. There’s things that people don’t necessarily feel comfortable to say to me. And, um, I think you, if, if you speak in a way that’s too direct, it’s almost, it can be taken as [00:48:00] insulting as opposed to just trying to get stuff done.
And so in terms of leading a Thai team, that I’ve, I’ve had, I’ve had a steep learning curve in that regard, but I now have a terrific managing council here, uh, who’s been in big law, Thai, went to Thammasat university. Um, and he’s helping me in my leadership capabilities.
Scott: Yeah, it’s definitely a learning curve.
And I think there’s every step, right? The, the first six months you’re going to learn a ton when you’re in Thailand, but then when you’re running a business, you learn a whole different set of lessons and, and. I assume it’s gonna be a learning experience for all of us, right?
Mark: And even dealing with landlords. Like, as a GC, we dealt with building out lots of space in the United States, and tenant allowances, and all of that, and the landlords and the, And the tenants were much more in a partnership on how the space got built out and sort of the length of the lease and the amortization of that investment. And [00:49:00] here it was just a different story.
Now, I think that the, that the leasing market has changed here in a post COVID environment. So we’ll, we’ll see, um, and in our next negotiation, but even things like that, uh, it’s just a different operating environment. And again, something else to learn, uh, and get used to and, and just deal with.
Scott: Now, I understand that your team has grown a lot.
I assume your client base has grown a lot. Um, is there, do you have any recommendations for other business owners or individuals starting businesses here about how you’ve been able to grow your team, grow your business? Are you fairly active? Um, what would you attribute some of your success to?
Mark: So, I do think you need to be integrated into the business community here. So we’re members of AmCham, which we love. I’m a, I’m part of the legal committee and the government relations committee. AusCham, which is a lot of fun. There are great guys over there. Uh, [00:50:00] I have a Thai legal counselor who is also French. and speaks fluent French and she’s part of the Franco Thai chamber.
So I think those chambers are important. Um, now this is not a government position whatsoever, and I just do it because there’s not a lot of Americans where I live in Petchaboon. Um, but I’m a citizen’s liaison volunteer through the, through the U.S. Consulate in Chiang Mai. And what CLVs do is, if an American gets into trouble, um, we can be a friendly face.
We, again, don’t represent the U.S. Government, but we can be that friendly face and help them navigate or get their family in touch with them and so on. So that’s been rewarding, and, and the U.S. Ambassador here is a Great person, um, has events for the CLV. So you get to know this community of people and it’s, it’s like anything else in business.
The bigger the community you have, the more opportunities you become aware of.
Scott: Right. And I guess it takes time to form those relationships and, you know, [00:51:00] being more involved. I assume that didn’t come day one and you kind of get your feelers out there and meet the right people give, uh, before you ask for something back.
Right. But I, but I do see some individuals that are. Um, I mentioned this a lot on the podcast, but might be a little bit more oriented towards, I need business, I need to grow handing out their business cards. And it’s a little bit more of a take. As opposed to I know that you’re involved in some things that you’re not getting paid for, right?
And you’re out there helping people, um, giving speeches. I think, uh, Australian Chamber, didn’t you recently, weren’t you recently involved in, uh, an event with them as well?
Mark: A couple of days ago, they have a breakfast briefing and I partnered with Malia who’s head of tax for BDO. He’s an amazing human being and BDO’s got a great organization here if you’re looking for a, for an accounting firm, but yes, um, and we talked about, you know, recent tax changes.
We talked about the L. T. R. Visa and we had a great turnout. Those kind of things, you know, look, I would like to be one of the trusted voices in in the community for Sort [00:52:00] of our area of practice. And I think that’s one way to do that is to offer people some information that they can rely on and get them thinking about how they might approach these, these, these issues.
Scott: Absolutely. Now, I assume that running a business here, you mentioned some of the stresses, some of the challenges. So, You gotta decompress at some point, right? Do you decompress? Do you have any recommendations for places to go, things to see, any way that you’re able to get rid of some of the stress that probably comes with this business?
Mark: My wife would love it if I would decompress more. I started working when I was 14 and I’m really terrible at retirement. So there you go. Um, but Thailand does offer some fantastic opportunities. So my happy place is putting on a snorkel and a mask and going to Ko Samui and just paddling around and looking at fish.
And, you know, there’s so many islands here. We were just on Ko Samet, uh, which is more of a local’s island. So you go south. and just have a terrific time, right? Four nights, you come [00:53:00] back a little, a little tanned and ready to hit the ground again. But, Par and I, my wife and I, love Nan province, which is probably the furthest northeastern province right next to Laos.
And if you want to see what Thailand was and experience what that was 75 years ago, the pace of life here, the slowness, the night market, and they have live music and you sit at little tables and you, you eat the food you bought from the lake, that’ll bring my heart rate down. Pai is very interesting. I think, and we, and we drive a lot around the country. Um, in our province, Pechabun, we see a lot of Thai tourists going to Khao Kha and also Phutabut and Nam Nhao National Park. I wish more expats would come up and take a look at that and maybe enjoy Huishan for some gaiyang. But this is a country that I think you could never be bored exploring and I think that Um, it’s also a great self care [00:54:00] country in that you can, you know, just go down the street and get a foot massage for an hour for, for 10.
Right. Um, so there’s all those opportunities. I tend to stay plugged in, but yes, this early December, we’re going to, we’re going to the Island, you know, going to sit on the beach for four days.
Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Fair. And I really liked the point that you made about, If you want to go back in time a little bit, because I know I’ve even made the comparison being here in Thailand.
If I’ll go to something like Vietnam, I’ll say, Oh, like Vietnam is like Thailand 10 or 15 years ago, because you’ll get a little bit more noticed as a foreigner, whether you like that or not. Uh, you know, things are a little more simple, things aren’t as developed and in a way that can be a good escape.
But to your point, there’s also just other areas of Thailand. And so as soon as you get out of Bangkok or Chiang Mai or some of the really big developed areas, There’s, I mean, there’s something for everyone, right?
Mark: Well, look, I, I call this a yes and country. Yes, you can get in Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam, you know, [00:55:00] all of those deep cultural Buddhist traditions, the great food, sort of a more laid back lifestyle.
You can find that here. And if you need great hospital care, you can run over to B& H or any number of hospitals and they’ll take and get concierge service with a specialist that’ll take really great care of you. Um, you know, this used to be the fastest growing metropolis in the world and was renowned for its, um, renowned for its traffic and so on.
But I’m just marveled at the fact that the infrastructure has really caught up here. I mean, the SkyTrain is great. The MRT is great. The toll roads are great. And so, yeah, you get, yes, you can get the old traditional Thai, um, culture. And you can get all the amenities and the, and kind of the value for your dollar here.
Scott: Oh, absolutely. No, it’s a great country with plenty of options and, uh, I couldn’t agree more. Well, so I really appreciate, Mark, you being [00:56:00] very generous with your time. I know we’ve kind of gotten one of those free consultations, uh, right now on a lot of different subjects. So hopefully a lot of immigration, uh, questions have been answered through this discussion.
Going back, case by case basis. Talk to someone about your, you know, particular situation, but you’ve covered a lot, you’ve shared a lot, so I really do appreciate it, Mark.
Mark: I always enjoyed our, our conversation, Scott, and happy to do it.
Scott: Yeah, well, so at that, let’s, uh, let’s transition to the best way to get in touch.
So let’s say someone does have some immigration questions. Um, what’s the best way for them to get in touch with you or the company?
Mark: Yeah. So I think the easiest way is just go to our website, um, www. btisolutions. co. Um, we have a way that you can, you know, fill out a contact us form and we’re very responsive to folks.
We, um, prefer to start. Our long term relationship with our clients, with a free consultation, just talk to us. Let’s learn more about you, you can learn more about us. If you think we’re the right fit and we think we can [00:57:00] add value, great. And if not, at least you’ve come away and you’ve gotten some up to date information from some terrific Thai counselors.
Or, If you’re Thai and looking to immigrate to the US from a pretty good American lawyer.
Scott: Absolutely. I couldn’t recommend it enough and remember that. So that’s btisolutions.co. It’s not.com. not.com. Somebody is squatted on the.com, but we got the.co. Alright, fantastic. Well thank you again, mark, really appreciate it’ll chat soon.
Mark: Thanks Scott.
